Engineering

If you don't feel like reading all of this, it summarizes to "Get your PE."

While it's an obvious fact that Dr. Michael overplays the Engineering knowledge gap between BSEEs and BSEETs (which is, essentially, Calculus 3 and 4, Differential Equations, Static and Dynamic Functions), the relevant point that can be taken from all of his arguments is that as long as your degree doesn't end with a form of the word "Engineering", there will always be someone that doesn't think that you're an engineer, regardless of your skill set.  I do appreciate, though, that he's helping me to prove the theory theory of the direct relation between your height on the Engineering education ladder to ego and and the inverse relationship to social skills.  

Level the playing field.  

According to North Dakota's requirements for Professional Engineering, one who meets the qualifications below can become a professional engineer:

"Is an engineer intern with a baccalaureate degree in an engineering-related program, who has at least twelve years of progressive experience in engineering work of a character and grade which indicates to the board that the applicant is competent to practice engineering."

I've contacted the board, and Grantham's BSEET would qualify under these circumstances with relevant work experience.  Sure, you can get a PE without a degree at all after 20 years in most states- but 8 years early isn't so bad of a deal.  At the least, I would hope that Dr. Michael would respect you for independently studying the difficult courses required to pass the examinations.

I've served in the role of head Electrical Engineer for two separate companies- one that promoted me to the position over a PE with an MSEE, and one that hired me on directly into the position.  I've had BSEEs and MSEEs coming to me at all hours for help with calculations, sizing questions, transient analysis, etc.  There are good engineers, and there are bad engineers.  If you perform the functions of a role that is equivalent to those of an engineer- you can go ahead and call yourself whatever you want, it won't bother me.  Just make sure that you have the competency to back it up.

"Online learning serves a useful purpose, as an adjunct to a classroom attendance program. It is not a substitute however." Respectfully, I disagree and believe it is!!!!

Lets talk .... 20+ years ago engineering courses like those most likely when Dr. Micheal attended were even more watered down unlike today. My grandpa is a retired engineer and can testify to that. As for me, I graduated an extensive EET advanced math and physics program with courses like calc 1, 2, and 3-advanced math so I wouldn't say my studies are watered down. I chose EET b/c I didn't want to become an engineer but in life things change and so did I. I guess it was inevitable! 

I know that Abet has voluntary standards for EEs/EET curriculum but I disagree with Abet and they should accredit colleges that offer courses 100% on-line (computer science, etc. especially for the adult learners). I agree for high school students with no previous experience but for the adult learner who has more practical experience this doesn't make sense. Personally, I fell college is very important (a resume filler) but real experience is even harder to achieve and everyone should have a chance for advancement even if its using the online route. In my opinion, it shows you are serious about your career and that you want to advance within my organization.

In fact, myself having a BSEET and a MSEE background according to you, Aero Engineer, and Dr. Micheal I am not an engineer but a pretender. Am I still pretending even with a MSEE?

I think not!

Good luck to both of you in "trying" to stagnate online learning but you are fighting a losing battle. Like I said, change is inevitable and as engineers, if we don't help solve these problems and improve the quality of life for society as a whole then you two are the ones pretending not me.

Online learning serves a useful purpose, as an adjunct to a classroom attendance program. It is not a substitute however. A correspondence school "degree", whether online, by mail, or any other, has not, is not, and will not be accorded the same respect as one obtained by real classroom attendance and work. Like others such as Dr. Michael said in these posts, engineering technology is not the equivalent of engineering. It is a watered down program lacking the fundamental rigorous science courses which are the foundation of all engineering. If you really think that it is equivalent to engineering, then why would engineering technology have come about in the first place? Simple, there are people who could not pass a full engineering course and are looking for an easy way out. Easy ways out will never be the equivalent of the real way however.

Like I said, good for you. I don't have to pretend.

Is that what bother's you?
That I have an engineering technology degree and getting paid to perform the work of an engineer. Yes, I problem solve and design new integrated devices...I'm sorry that bothers you but get over it! You can call me whatever you wish but at the end of the day...my duty title and pay grade says, "ENGINEER".

In fact, I'm a pretty darn good one too. So I wish you and all the other Abet cronies best of luck in your pursuit to stagnate online learning but you will lose. Change is inevitable and if I must say it sounds to me that you are the one pretending. If you are what you say you are then engineer a way for the future of online learning platforms. 

Micheal, I truly wish you best!!!

Signed,

A real engineer!
BS, Engineering Technology

Good for you. There are genuine engineers and pretenders. You are the latter.

I am not sure what world you live in but the majority of the world and that is what counts disagrees with you.

The world that counts disagrees with you.

Yeah, well, OK. In my book you aren't an engineer without an engineering degree. This means ABET-accredited ENGINEERING, not "technology", not correspondence, etc.

Good think its only your opinion because the rest of the world doesn't agree with you including me. 

I'm sorry to have to tell you but I have a technology degree and "I AM AN ENGINEER" acciording to my pay and job title.

Do you really believe that someone who obtained an engineering "technology degree" online with no real lab work, interaction with instructors, and classmates, and rigorously monitored exams is the equivalent of one who spent four years full time in a classroom and did the physical lab work? 

My answer is YES!

I admire the dedication and bravery of our servicepeople as much as you do. That is not the issue. What is the issue however are educational/professional credentials and preparation. Do you really believe that someone who obtained an engineering "technology degree" online with no real lab work, interaction with instructors, and classmates, and rigorously monitored exams is the equivalent of one who spent four years full time in a classroom and did the physical lab work? If two people were applying for the same job, one the former and one the latter, which would you choose? ABET has been around (and its predecessor) since 1936 and is an established standard of quality. Anything less is a pretender. There are pretenders and shortcuts in every field as I mentioned. I do consulting for a major defense contractor. Many of their employees were in the military including their CEO and executive VPs. None of them attended correspondence schools. None of the engineers I work with did either.

"Our military men and women DOES NOT have time to attend traditional college while spending more hours than you can fathom protecting our nation. In fact, I want you to understand the military is not a regular 8-5 job…its 24 hours 7 days a week. Therefore, for these men and women that spend 1.5 years over in Iraq and come home you can see they barely have enough time to spend with their family."

My father spent four years in the Army in WWII, and was a decorated veteran of D-Day. After the left the Army he attended City University of New York full time. He didn't take a shortcut with correspondence schools (which at that time were actually through the mail, well before the modern Internet age).

Yeah, well, OK. In my book you aren't an engineer without an engineering degree. This means ABET-accredited ENGINEERING, not "technology", not correspondence, etc.

If you read my comment carefully, you will note that my criticism was of Grantham pitching its "product" to military personnel. In no way, shape, or form do I criticize military folks. I am pointing out that all military and government professional positions that require a degree require it to be obtained from a regionally accredited institution of higher learning. You obviously didn't read my blog carefully. In engineering, every government and military engineering organization that I know of requires an ABET-accredited engineering degree. Having consulted and worked for those organizations I know what their requirement are. If you are an ex-serviceperson looking to become an engineer, PLEASE enroll in an ABET-accredited institution.

You made another ignorant comment, “I note that Grantham for example pitches to ex-military and current military folks, correct?” Our government provides tuition reimbursement to Grantham and other “accredited” colleges in the US. I want to make very clear that I did not mention Abet or regionally accredited in my last sentence. Why? Again, our government DOES NOT discriminates and thoroughly verifies every college that “OUR” tax paying money goes to educating our nation’s military.  In fact, last time I checked our military is the greatest, most educated military in the world.
I will close for now and pray for you. I recommend Michael that you take a hard look at yourself before you criticize others, ok.  In fact, I want you to do me a favor, ok. Its Worth remembering!

MEMORIAL DAY 

It is the VETERAN, not the preacher, who has given us freedom of religion. 

It is the VETERAN, not the reporter,   who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the VETERAN, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.
   
It is the VETERAN, not the campus organizer, who has given us freedom to assemble. 
    
It is the VETERAN, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial. 
 
It is the VETERAN, not the politician, Who has given us the right to vote. 
 
It is the VETERAN who salutes the Flag, 
 
It is the VETERAN who serves under the Flag, 

ETERNAL REST GRANT THEM O LORD, AND LET PERPETUAL LIGHT SHINE UPON THEM. 
 
I'd be EXTREMELY proud if this email reached as many as possible. We can be very proud of our young men and women in the service no matter where they serve. 
 
God Bless YOU and all of them!!!      

Makes you proud to be an AMERICAN!!!!!

I would you to know that your comment "Every governmental organization I know of requires its engineers to have ABET-accredited degrees - look in any ad from military engineering organizations" is misleading and false. If you do the research, USAJOBS does mention Abet but it is not "THE" sole requirement for applying and being accepted for an engineering job. I work for the US Government and the government DOES NOT discriminates against degrees. We will accept those with Engineering Technology degrees as engineers, ok. We also accept those that are accredited both nationally and regionally, ok. I want to clear that up, alright!
Lastly, another comment you made really irks me "Finally, using the fact that one has a family and thus cannot take time to attend a real school is a cop out." Michael you should understand that not everyone in the world can afford (we are economic times) or has the time to attend traditional college.  I applaud you classmate of overcoming the odds against him to finish college with a family. THAT IS AWESOME! 

However….

What about those military men and women those that serve our great nation?  You know them, the people that gave “YOU” the price the freedom and sacrificed their lives so you can write down your thoughts about how great Abet is and traditional schools are. Because its Memorial Day weekend and out of respect, I will not lash out at you in anger with my words but I DO want you to understand. Our military men and women DOES NOT have time to attend traditional college while spending more hours than you can fathom protecting our nation. In fact, I want you to understand the military is not a regular 8-5 job…its 24 hours 7 days a week.  Therefore, for these men and women that spend 1.5 years over in Iraq and come home you can see they barely have enough time to spend with their family.

My former employer did require an ABET accredited engineering (not ET) degree for any of its entry-level engineering positions. I note that Grantham for example pitches to ex-military and current military folks, correct? Every governmental organization I know of requires its engineers to have ABET-accredited degrees - look in any ad from military engineering organizations - they specifically state that and also state what subjects the candidate had to have studied in school. Finally, using the fact that one has a family and thus cannot take time to attend a real school is a cop out. I had a classmate who went on to get his Ph.D. in chemistry, full time, at the Univ. of Illinois after he got married and had a family, and after 10 years of working with a master's degree for a major drug manufacturer. He did this full time, for five years, and he still managed to support his family. I know many others who went part time at night to the local universities to get their engineering degrees, while working full time. I also know people who got their law and medical degrees, full time and part time (in the case of the law students) while they had families. Grantham, and other for-profit correspondence schools target people who believe their advertising that there are shortcuts. Well, yes, there are shortcuts out there. Those people who took the shortcuts will also be viewed as shortcuts by employers. Tell me, look at the middle and senior management of your Fortune 50 employer. What schools did they attend? I suspect that few, or none, took the shortcut route.

Mr. Pork Chop, no I am not lonely. The organization for which I used to work (at one time, in the Fortune 5 as the largest private employer in the world, now in the Fortune 20) prior to going out into consulting was the top of the engineering ladder, without mentioning names, but I am sure you know which - inventor of the transistor, laser, LED, communications satellite, cell phone, and most of the other fundamental technologies that made possible our modern electronic, computer, and communications age. This organization hired the best of the best, and its accomplishments followed accordingly. While work experience is extremely valuable, experience without the fundamental scientific/academic background means little. In my former organization, you simply could not do the work without the engineering and scientific training. How would you design something that works, on budget, on schedule, and satisfies the requirements without being able to do the prerequisite engineering analyses? Trial and error is too expensive (which is the characteristic of most of the ET and technician-level folks I have met) to be a practical design technique. Managing the work of engineers with ABET engineering degrees, do you do any of the engineering work yourself? I have to say that I would not respect a manager whose technical credentials are less than those doing the work. With respect to PE, if it were up to me PE licensure would be required for all engineering work, whether offered to the public or in private organizations.

Does it ever get lonely up there on your pedestal, Michael?

I have a BSEET degree from Grantham. I'm a Sr. Electrical Design Engineer for a Fortune 50 company listed on the Dow Industrial index. I lead teams and direct the work of engineers with ABET degrees. So what? Unless you work in a field that requires a PE (the vast majority of engineering positions do not), most employers do not care where your degree is from or whether it it ABET accredited or not. Real world work experience is the key.

For many adults looking to complete or continue their education it's simply not practical to quit their jobs and starve their family to attend full-time on campus study. Grantham is a great alternative for ambitious, self-starting, non-traditional students. I would definitely not recommend Grantham to a fresh HS graduate.

As with all things in life, you will get as much out of your education as you put in to it.

When I was in school, we had one or two undergraduates who transferred after getting an ET degree. In those cases, much make up coursework was required, since the basic science courses (calculus, physics, chemistry, thermodynamics, statics, dynamics, electronic circuits, and many others) were not at the same level of the ones in the engineering program (my school was and is only a full-time, ABET accredited, engineering program, no part timers, no ET, and no undergraduate online courses). They did quite well so they were obviously smart people. Like Chad says, since you have something of a foundation in technical coursework, why not transfer to an ABET-accredited engineering school and get your ENGINEERING degree? Yes you will likely have to make up some background science courses, so what? The reward is well worth the effort.

To Chad - The UND program is not completely online, though. As you point out, the issue of how one does labs is non-negotiable with ABET. You still have to be "in residence" on the campus to do the labs in person. While I still maintain there is no substitute for full time, in-class attendance, this method is better than one that is totally online. In my opinion, a semester's worth of labs done in only one week leaves little time for getting much out of them. When I was in school, we had so many labs and so much time was required to do them and to really learn from them it would have been inconceivable to do it part time or in any compressed manner. 

If I had my way, however, engineering would be a full-time, on campus program, with no ABET accreditation of anything else. Unfortunately, it is not up to me. Engineering is just as critical, important, and affects as many lives as does medicine and law for example. I don't think the AMA or the medical college accreditation board would ever accredit an online (even partially online) medical course. Like I said before, with an abundance of properly trained folks on the job market (that is, recipients of on campus full time engineering degrees), anything less will be at a disadvantage.

For those of you who said that no online engineering school will ever be ABET accredited, think again.  University of North Dakota has one.  It is a brick and mortar university that records all the lectures for all of the classes and then lets you access them at your convenience.  You follow the same time lines as the on campus students.  When it's time for exams, they send the exam to a proctor in your area like a library or another college.  This way the exams are not "open book" as someone suggested.  Oh, and as for the part about the labs:  Every summer the students who are not on campus, must travel to the university to complete the labs which are done in an all day class for about a week so it's very challenging and time is compressed.  Basically the college is not "online" rather it's a traditional college that offers a few programs to people who can access lectures and content online.

Michael, thanks for straightening out Donmech. If I were in E.E., Mech E, or Chem E school, I would be scared to death taking a course in "hydrolics" or "daferantual" equations. You are absolutely right about the stance that industry takes on Technologists and Engineers. I wish all the institutions would take out the term "Engineering" in E.T. programs. It's very deceptive. No question that a tech degree will earn you more money. Donmech to call yourself an Engineer with other than an A.B.E.T. accredited degree in Engineering is fraudulent. I look up to those who have earned the most coveted of degrees. You who have earned an E.T. degree, kudos! Consider furthering your education and work for the E.E.. Until then, please contribute to the image that engineers work so hard to maintain: through honesty-factual representation of you and your work and through integrity-do all you do correctly, systematically, consistently and continually.

Donmech, you do not have an engineering education, so please don't speak about something you know little about. There is far more to it than what you claim are two courses. If you read the course content carefully, you will find that they are not equivalent even though they may have similar titles.  You probably were scared away by the high level of rigor required of the engineering courses, under the guise of the engineering technology being "practically oriented". You cannot do the math at the same level as an engineering graduate. If you really believe ET is equivalent to engineering, why would you settle for that and not pursue a genuine engineering degree? As I said before, with an abundance of engineers out there (read, those with real engineering degrees, not ET), why would someone hire you with a lesser credential? And for pete's sake, you can't even spell. I sincerely hope that when you fill out a job application or write your resume you carefully proofread them. If I got a resume with such outlandish spelling and grammatical errors, it would be in the circular file faster than you can say "rejection"! No organization I ever worked for, did consulting work for, advised, or otherwise had ET people in anything more than technician-level positions. A few went back to school and got their engineering degrees part-time, but they were not engineers as long as their only credentials were ET.

An ET degree from a brick-and-mortar school is better than one from a mail-order or internet "university", but as I say you will not be taken with the same seriousness as a holder of an engineering degree.

I don't care if you disagree with me. Industries, professional licensing boards, consulting firms, government, and others do not.

I completly disagree with michael. I myself attended a brick and mortor school and studied mechanical Engineering Technology. I considered getting my degree in ME but for me the mechanical technology degree fit better because I have over 10 years experieance in the industerial plant maintenance as a mechanic and millwright as well as michinist and certified welder. When I decided to get my degree I researched both the technology degree and the so called engineering degree. The only difference I could find is that a regular ME has two more math classes than engineering technology. They both have thermodynamics, they both have strength of materials and statics, they both have machine design, both have hydrolics and materials every class that ME's Have mechanical engineer tech also have with the exception of calculas 4 and defarentual equations and I dont see how having two more math classes sets ME's on such a high pedistal when ME tech can do the math and the hand on as well as being much more prepaired to be involved in whatever project is at hand.

You are simply wasting your time with any of these on-line for profit "engineering" schools. Engineering is properly a full-time, ABET accredited program. Engineering technology, even from a traditional brick-and-morter school is NOT equivalent to an engineering program. In all the companies I have ever worked, ET people were nothing more than technicians who never rose above that level. In almost all fields, there is some cheap and dirty way to get around having to sweat the real educational requirements. If you do, you are nothing more than a pretender. With an abundance of good engineering talent out there with real degrees do you really think you will be competitive with an ET degree, particularly one from a mail-order school? NO online undergraduate program will be ABET accredited for engineering, you MUST have in-residence labs. Do you really think you will get that same level of hands-on knowledge never having touched an oscilloscope, spectrum analyzer, network analyzer, built circuits from component level, etc? Well you won't. Regards, Michael, BSEE, MSEE, MS Math, PhD., 
Consulting Engineer (Signal Processing)

I  graduated from the Philippines with Bachelors of Science in Electrical Engineering where education is cheap . I also worked here in the US for fortune 500 company  Boeing , Abbott labs , Pepsico and Robotics company as an Automation engineer . I enrolled in  one  university accredited by DETC for computer science major and their materials is awesome. I believe it depends in your ability to learn and execute what youve learned and as long as you make your employer happy and be and act as proffesional in an interview  (first impression ) then your good to go.

For anybody taking the engineering technology degree programs, just keep in mind that an ET degree IS NOT an engineering degree.
For military getting the degree for promotion purposes, what degree you get doesn't matter, but the ET is still useful for your duties, so have at it.
However, if you are shooting for an engineering job, do your research before you go the ET route.
Your chances of walking straight into an engineering job with an ET is slim to none.  
However, some places will bring you in as a Tech or Engineering Tech with an ET, and eventually move you to an engineering spot.
So, if you can wait for the engineering job, have at it, but if you want to go straight into a job as an engineer, don't go the ET route.
As others have said, online courses won't get ABET accreditation anytime in the near future, ABET won't do it because the labs aren't in-residence.
One option, though, is a non-ABET online BS in engineering, then get into an ABET accredited online MS in engineering course.  The ET doesn't give you enough math to get you into the MS in engineering.
Just some notes from experience with this subject.

I disagree with the so called engineer that said, "engineering "technology" is a not a water-down engineering program." I too am an engineer and EETs are applied engineers that can perform many more application based engineering skills than us old engineers (theory based).

I work with EETs and these folks can do my job. Abet...come on...this is overdoing it bit don't you think Micheal, PhD. I don't agree with you but I do agree that the schools "must" be accredited either RA/NA and not diploma mills.

I've talked to many other schools, who wont accept ANY grantham credits, and many of whoom laughed when i told them where i choose to begin my education. These included excelsior, old dominion, virginia state, and many others. I beleive it was a waste of time, as i learned little other than what i entered the courses with, instructors took days to weeks to answer simple questions, many just pointed to "read so and so chapter again". A regional accredition would help thier degree actually mean something, and yes i was directly lied to when i enrolled and was told that they were regionally accredited. Take your T/A to another school military people, this one isnt worth it.

If you do not attend an ABET-accredited engineering school your "degree" is worthless, period. ABET will never accredit a totally online program, since there is no means of doing laboratory work ("virtual laboratories" online are not the equivalent of doing work hands on, with real equipment, with real results). When I was in school we certainly did not have open book tests. Also, engineering "technology" is a watered-down program that is NOT the equivalent of engineering. If you don't have the academic wearwithall or time to pursue a real engineering education full time, I strongly recommend you consider another field. Engineering is to important for pretenders, and employers will know that. Take my word for it, from a REAL engineer. Michael, Ph.D., Consulting engineer - communications systems and signal processing.

I graduated from the BSEET program at Grantham in 2005 because I already had a two year degree in industrial electronics from a technical college I needed a four year degree to advance my career in engineering and get paid the same as the guys who had BS degrees and were doing the same work. My employer was a Fortune 500 company who paid for my degree.

I have worked in engineering for over 8 years for a number of large and small companies. I am currently a Sr. Electrical Engineer for a Fortune 50 company making nearly six figures. I am also nearly completed with an AACSB accredited MBA from a regionally accredited state university. Thats correct- the second largest university in my state accepted my DETC Grantham degree for admission into their MBA program.

This being said, an engineering degree from a regional college is better than one from Grantham and possibly opens more doors. A degree from Grantham is much better than none at all. 

Get a degree and get some work experience. Forget to be a failure and don't take no for an answer. 

Here are some facts I've learned that can help you:

Grantham is not ABET or regionally accredited. 

Most states require an ABET engineering degree to become a licensed professional engineer (PE). Grantham will most likely never get ABET accredited so don't count on this.

The vast majority of employers don't require or value a PE license and most engineers do not have one. The exceptions are civil engineering and power plant engineering.

Most employers don't care where your degree is from as long as you have one. Work experience, good personal skills, and a great attitude are much more valuable than a degree. I have not had any problems finding work with a Grantham degree and work experience. 

Most colleges will accept general education credits from DETC accredited colleges. 

Do not expect your grantham credits to transfer into engineering major programs at most colleges. Colleges are snobs in this regard so don't expect your credits to be easy to transfer unless there are specific agreements in place. It doesn't make any sense to take classes at Grantham if you plan on transferring somewhere else.

OldGreyDude

I could not have said it better. People today get lost in credentials when it matters that you can do what you say. They are important just like a lever to  the fulcrum but
the power behind the lever is what you can do with your piece of paper....power..show them what you got after you get their attention...
spoken like a genius! hahaaa

I love it when people defy the odds! hhah ;) great!
but true

I am one of those students that went to a "brick and mortar" big ten school for my undergrad and have found the MBA program at Grantham to be a good fit to my current lifestyle. I do not have time to sit in class with people who have only read about the world, this old 1SG has been there. From what I have learned so far, it is giving me the advantage at my civilian job already. Bottom line it is what you put into it that matters.

Howdy.  I took some courses with Grantham way back in the
mid 80's.  That's when Don Grantham was still running the school personally (he's passed on now) and it was called
Grantham College of Engineering.  I have nothing but good
memories of the customer/student service.  The quality of
the technical courses was outstanding and did help me to advance my career.  As for regional vs detc goes ... I've
had to explain what accreditation means to more than one
HR director in my 30 plus year career in the semiconductor
industry.  Most states require ABET accreditation before a 
person can sit the FE and PE exams (look those up).  California does not.  Grantham was in California back then.
They moved to Louisiana so that Don's wife Lenore (registrar) could be closer to her aging parents.  Katrina 
blew them all to Kansas City.  The bottom line is that if 
you know your stuff YOU will be recognized regardless of where you got your degree or if you have a degree.  Two people come to mind here:  Robert Dobkin - cofounder of Linear Technology Corporation.  No degree ... attended MIT.
This man has an incredible stack of patents (and piles of $$ too)  and Jim Williams Linear Technology Senior Scientist - degree in English I think.  Jim is a brilliant engineer and an industry icon.  Look these boys up online.  So, Grantham students and Grads: Hold your heads up. Know your stuff.  It matters not where you learned it but only that you did learn it.  
Cheers,

OldGreyDude
Great career - no degree - six figures anyway.
Oh darn! I plumb forgot to be a failure.

By the way, I wish I had finished with Grantham all those
years ago ... but I let a bunch of candy-ass naysayers influence me back then.  Don't make the same mistake.

I am a 20 yr military veteran, married for fiteen years, 2 children.  Grantham offers an opportunity for those with full time jobs and busy lives to earn a degree.  The benifits of the actual education itself (provided you do your own work) is invaluable.  I will be promoted to E-8 and possibly E-9, because of my AA and BS from GU.  My records do not show which school I got them from or what accreditation it has.  Additionally, I know first hand of individuals (prior military civilian's at a local company) who recieved an additional $10,000 in thier annual pay solely based on the fact that they had a Bachelor's degree. However, don't be confused.  This is not a biased opinion.  I understand that I already have a wealth of experience and a solid career.  If your goal is continued education/higher learning (Masters or Doctorate,s degree)in "pursuit" of a career, I would not recommend Grantham or many other on-line colleges for that matter.  If you do your "homework" in regards to your goals and aspirations, you will chose what is right for you.  "Know your goal, or slow your roll."

I am a father of 6, with my oldest being 8.  I have been taking courses since 2003 with Grantham and have found each of them very beneficial (19 courses and labs so far).  I have learned a great deal. It hasn't been all roses.  I have failed a final and had to pay $1000 to redo a class, but I am sticking with it.  I plan to graduate 04/2009 with pretty decent grades.  
    Some courses are easy and some are hard.  Some have lotttts of homework and some have none.  What else would you expect?  
    I don't like some of this schools policies, but I do respect them and understand why they have them.  It may not be ABET certified, but I will have an bachelors engineering tech. degree in my name that I know I worked extremely hard and long for with many obstacles most people would complain about.

What a bunch of ranting this site has. I am a student at Grantham and I have had a great experience. I called one of my old brick and morter collegs and have gotten terrible service. And one of the gents said how you can cheat at Grantham. Well you can cheat at brick and morter just as easy. Have you ever boughten notes form expert note takers? I have seen it. Also, the clasess that I have taken I have learned more in them than any brick and morter college. Ever because I had to work my arse off to know this stuff. In brick and morter colleges I had to chase teachers down if I was luck I could see them. They were swamped with classes to make money. Or they would say get a tutor just like any college! I knew more than the tutors at these brick colleges. So people grow up. Education is what you make it.  Grantham has been around for 51 years I am sure they are doing something right..I know the are helping me.
I always knew they were not ABET accredited. I did my homework. Go to a engineering college you babies..duh! 
I am a network engineering major taking a BSCS and I dont need ABET. If you need ABET then go to an ABET school and shut your mouth....I have had a great experience GCE and so have many...
my 3.4 cents

I see and hear a lot of what people are saying about credits earned from a school that's DETC accredited, and I have to tell you that it's not true. I've transfered DETC credits to two regionally accredited schools now, ODU and Strayer University, so I know that regionally accredited schools accept credits from DETC accredited schools.

Hello,

I found this pasage from the North Central Association
Commission on Accreditation and School Improvement (one of six regional accreditation standards policies). Please see quote from the NCA policy letter.

"A school’s failure to submit a substantive change may result in changes to the school’s accreditation status. 


Credits or Grade Placement.  An NCA CASI postsecondary accredited school shall accept and classify transfer credits earned or grade placement from schools that are accredited by a recognized national, regional/trans-regional,1 or state accrediting agency without further validation based on the school’s policies and procedures governing such offerings.  The school’s policies and procedures should be designed to ensure proper academic placement of the student."

Please read the fine print when telling others to goto a regional accredited school. Bottom line is regional is no better/worst than any of the other accredited bodies to include DETC.

thank you!

Read fine print, go to a regionally accredited school

Hey quantico, CHEA only promises that one institution will consider transfering a credit. Individual credits are hard to transfer, accepting institution can/will go as far as researching your professor's educational background in some cases. You can get a degree completely from grantham and for most part it will be as good as any from another university, it depends on your employer.

Grantham is a very good school. 

I'm in the military and it cost my TA $250/credit hour. With the help of Grantham they payed for the remainder of my tuition = $0 out-of-pocket expenses for me!

The electrical engineering tech course allowed me to gain a vast amount of knowledge. there are hands-on projects too. 

I was able to apply what I learned on my job and my boss is very impressed by my new technical background.

One thing I would like to comment on is although Grantham s cirricula is ABET I would like them to persue ABET certification.

Otherwise, no complaints here.

The website for Chea is www.chea.org. The link for Heta is www.chea.org/heta. There is a search button at the bottom of the page. There are some very prestigous universities on the list. Just because Grantham may have been a bad experience for some, you have to realize it provides opportunity especially to military and federal employees.

I have been taking courses with Grantham for three years and have found the experience very positive. I am a Federal Government Employee and the degree is fully excepted for govt advancement because the school is accredited by the Dept of Education and CHEA as well as being a SOC school. For those who say they cannot transfer credits, you should check on the CHEA website for HETA schools who have an articulation agreement. The includes 85 regionally and nationally accredited universities that will accept credits from Grantham. I know this to be true because I was recently accepted into a M.S. Program at Capella University. You have to do your research before judging any school especially a school like Grantham that gave this U.S. Marine an opportunity to achieve a bachelors degree.

I have been taking courses with Grantham for three years and have found the edperience very positive. I am a Federal Government Employee and the degree is fully excepted for govt advancement because the school is accredited by the Dept of Education and CHEA. For those who say they cannot transfer credits, you should check on the CHEA website for HETA schools who have an articulation agreement. The includes 85 regionally and nationally accredited universities that will accept credits from Grantham. I know this to be true because I was rcently accepted into a M.S. Program at Capella University. You have to do your research before judging any school especially a school like Grantham that gave this U.S. Marine an opportunity to achieve a bachelors degree.

I cannot believe the Military actually endorses this organization.  What a rip off... and to boot it's not ABET accredited (and will never be).  

If you desire to enter into Engineering... this is NOT the path for you!  All major engineering firms require that your degree is ABET accredited.  Furthermore, an Engineering “Technology” degree does not pay nearly as much as an actual Engineering degree (there is a difference).      

I actually began taking classes at Grantham about 4 years ago and got the same song and dance about them receiving the ABET accreditation... I actually contacted ABET, based on their guidelines there was no way Grantham is or will ever be accredited by them.

Anyway, I eventually transferred to an actual University (which had an ABET accredited engineering program) <www.abet.org>.  

Final Remarks:  If you are serious about getting into Engineering.  Seriously, do not waste your time and money with Grantham.  Find a college that is ABET accredited.  If need be, first, take your lower level Core and Elective classes at a Regionally Accredited School… Community College or Regionally Accredited Online College (FYI, none of my Grantham credits transferred).  Trust me, your hard work and perseverance WILL pay off.

Student Advisors-  At least mine, very accessable.  Very Helpful.

Text Materials-  Good enough for the job.

Overall, A fun leaning experiance that will lead to success.

You guys need to wake up. Distance education means nothing with out a regional acredidation to back it up. Period. Grantham doesnt have that. The school is not university. There are no eagles. Its in a strip mall for crying out loud. If youre in one of the engineering courses get out now. Most engineering jobs require your degree to be from an ABET acredited school which Grantham is not even close to being one. Theres to my knowledge about three online degree schools that offer this. Grantham is not one of them. I guess a school like this suffices for buissness but not anything else.

Former student.

Overall: "High accolades" Scale of 1 to 10 my rating is 9.

Materials: “Great”. Difficult and informative.  You'll study subjects such as trig, calc 1,2, and diff equations, fourier transform, laplace transform,etc..

Technology:  Virtual Labs include simulation software such as Microsoft Visual Studio.NET (C/C++ programming), Electronic workbench (SPICE, Matlab,Motorola ASM68K/EMU68K, Oracle, Microsoft project/Office/Xp/Frontpage.  Tons of hands-on simulated lab work using simulated circuitry, oscopes (model tecktronix), DMM, spectrum analyzer, and more.

Teachers: Very helpful however; a bit slow to respond to home work questions.  They're very knowledgeable about respected fields of study.

Institution: Leadership very helpful and supportive with students. 

Value: I'm in the military and I value my degree from Grantham. I know it will help me get the right job and open many doors for me.  I'll I ask is give us grantham students a chance...we will not disappoint you.

Use of Technology: Again, great software simulated technology and up-to-date information such as software releases.  I would like to recommend the use of video for additional instruction.  E.g. create a open courseware for students like MIT has on-line.

Code of conduct: Grantham’s has a very strict "Code of Conduct" and policy about cheating. Tests/exams are online and once you begin you have to cmplete the tests or faail.  It's not easy to cheat or use open book testing like many threads are saying.  BTW...not all tests are open book and tests are difficult enough that it requires math calculations or test aren't chapter by chapter its spread out throughout the entire book.

My final comments: Grantham is accredited by DETC. DETC is no different by governement standards then regional accrediation.  This school is NOT a Diploma Mill.  It is an accredited university and i highly recommend it to everyone.

I hope this helps!

Current student

Overall: I couldn’t use my degree for progression in the Air Force. I know I will have problems in the civilian world.

Materials: “GOOD”.

Teachers: Need improvement.  They need to be held accountable for not meeting student’s needs (i.e. responding to emails).  I had an instructor tell me to hire a tutor. I struggled through math class on my own...no help!  BTW...not all instructors were bad.  Dr. Sutter was great and there have been other good ones.  If you’re out there “thank you!”

Institution: Leadership needs to wake up and smell the coffee.  You need to listen to its students, instructors, and staff for advice.  It’s called process of improvement!

Support: I gave them a "6".  I rated it not for the 3 bad instructors I had but for the majority of the instructors that pushed me, emailed me back to do better, or study harder.  Thank you!  I did learn a lot from them.  Overall, the adjunct instructors I had were very knowledgeable and supporting.  Grantham should listen to them and take some advice.

Value:  It’s poor!  I have not advanced in the Air Force with this degree.  I have applied for State Jobs in IL...no luck there.  It looks as if the only job I can get is the one I currently have.  Wake up Grantham...you students need both Regional and ABET accreditation.  I have been told by Grantham, We’re obtaining both since 2001.  It isn't going to happen...bad on you for not keeping your word Grantham...shame on you!

Use of Technology: It could use improvement.  I t does use very good technology for software via distance learning.  I think using some hands-on circuit breadboards, multimeter, and a hand-held o-scope would be very beneficial.  Also, use video for instructing students on-line.

My comments about cheating:  I want to say I never cheated and for those that did...shame on you!  You know Grantham’s "Code of Conduct" and its policy about cheating.  It’s like any other school; if you’re caught you get in trouble.  That should fall more on the person than Grantham because you can not get through life or your next job if you’re a cheater.

I would like to see from Grantham: Obtain Regional and ABET at the same time.  Offer a Master's program for Engineering.  Start an undergrad program for Electrical and Computer Engineering, Biomedical Engineering, and Biomedical Engineering Technology.

My final comments:  Grantham if you can hear me...you know my thoughts since I constantly email about "what my expectations are from you" so wake up and smell the darn coffee.  Also, for current Grantham students if you’re going to complain this is a good place, ripoffreport, and the Better Business Bureau.  My advice to students is complaining to Grantham’s President, Dean and Provost and let them know just how you feel about the school.  Also, let them know you’re unhappy and if things do not change for the better and soon you will take your money elsewhere.  .  Grantham…its time to act now before it’s too late!