Northcentral University Comments

You're Kidding, Right:

I believe few open enrollment for-profit students confuse the academic reputation of their respective college or university and attempt to create a corollary to a tier one or two ranked university (I know I certainly do not).

On the contrary, many graduate (and doctorate) students understand the academic balancing act these for-profit, post-secondary institutions walk. As you stated "That said, there is certainly a place for online learning and there is little doubt they provide opportunities for countless students."

The challenge I have, and the philosophy I attempt to forward in this forum, is the significant failure rate, particularly at the doctorate level many students encounter. This is where we will agree (I believe), since academic rigor is secondary to profit generation, students arrive with transcripts in one hand and a check in the other, and they are "admitted."

These students fail for a number of reasons, locate this site and then post their complaint(s). The fact is, absent open enrollment, many of these students would not be attending their respective for-profit institution. It is these various entrance exams, GMAT, GRE, MAT etc, and GPA, writing samples, and recommendations that direct students to a tier one or two university and to a lower quality academic reputation for-profit university, as does scheduling and life responsibilities. The fact is, few adult learners can quit their day jobs and attend a traditional full-time university, at any academic level regardless if they could attain admittance.

The debate is not about academic reputation, for-profit students are aware they are not attending the Ivy League; it is not about "grounded" verses "virtual" learning, it is about completion rates and the individual’s ability to objectively assess their own academic ability in an environment where no academic assessment is offered, and their academic institution appears indifferent regarding the student's ability to complete their program of study.

You are correct, lots of bright folks complete these types of degrees (for-profit) and go on to do great things.

Do you folks really believe your online experience is comparable to a traditional graduate school program? Do you need a certain score on the GRE to get in? Are there GPA standards? 

I get a kick out of the way some of these online and distance learning programs operate. One "university" asked their students to find PhD's who will assist them in their programs with no renumeration.

I teach in a second-tier university graduate program. I attended a select university for my PhD. I assure you, there's a difference in the caliber of students and the rigor of the program of these "traditional" schools, and I'd bet the farm that these variations are even greater with online schools. No faculty member I know is lining up to take a job at an online university. Most, however, would move to more selective schools next week, given the opportunity.  

That said, there is certainly a place for online learning and there is little doubt they provide opportunities for countless students. And while there are some really smart people who opt for the flexibility and convenience these schools provide, don't deceive yourself into thinking you'll be a viable candidate for a big-time university professorship...that is unless you've published countless articles and have demonstrated an incredible contribution to your field. 

So, if you need some sort of creditial (like a licensed psyc) and you don't plan to teach at the university level, then go for it. But recognize what you're buying.

As a graduate of the school, I found the classes to be well designed. The assignments were described well and the text books used were very good. The mentors responded to questions within one week. There were a few mentors that did not understand my Dissertation topic; however, they also stated that and *did not* participate in my committee. My committee was very detail oriented and I believe fairly evaluated my work. From the time I started research 4 (the concept paper) to the time I handed in a copy of my Dissertation needed to publish and graduate, it took about two years. The Dissertation itself was well over 150 pages.
Now, on my resume, I have listed my PhD including my Dissertation Chair, Dissertation title, and school name. I have had great success in finding a job using the degree plus my work experience. I have spoken to other colleges, and they have expressed interest in working with me to publish journal articles. In short, I personally have not experienced any rejection of my PhD. One should consider the fact that most PhD programs are not part-time or online, and in my home state, most PhD students are not from the USA. NCU gives an opportunity for US (as well as foreign) students to earn a degree and to do so at their own pace via an accessible online medium.

As an experienced university faculty member,I caution prospective NCU students that a number of the faculty mentors will have no experience in your field of interest and will not be qualified to critique your research papers and comment on their content. Their best and generally their sole efforts will be concentrated on finding errors in APA style and perhaps grammar--and sometimes they are wrong. If you are looking for one-on-one time at NCU, you will not find it.

In addition, many of the NCU courses are poorly conceptualized.

What was that said to Dick Whittington? "Go West,young man?" 
My response: Don't.

There's a little bit of validity to everything that has been stated.  I am two years into the doctorate program.  I certainly find the program to be academically rigorous, much more so than the brick and motar university in which I earned my Master's Degree.  HOWEVER, it is a "teach yourself" school.  I miss the interactions with professors and the support.  I'm not entirely clear that all of the mentors are especially competent.  Some of their feedback is inappropriate, as indignation should be reserved for professors who actually teach... not grade your ability to teach yourself.  Much of my frustration has come from having already published in a major journal and yet being told that there's a problem with my basic approach to research.  Hmm... I wil complete my program, as I've come too far, but I would strongly recommend an alternative for those shopping.  It has not been a satsifying learning experience.   

I am not a shill. I graduated from NCU and found the degree to be very useful. It was a difficult program and I think that current and prospective students need to hear from graduates.

I have an earned PhD from NCU. Of course I am proud of it! It was a tough degree to earn. I mentioned that I spent about 20-30 hours a week for five years working on it. There were tough times though, and there were many rejections of my work. Ultimately, blogging doesn't help you accomplish your degree. You have to develop a tough skin so to speak and resubmit your work after making much improvements to your Dissertation. My purpose of blogging is to demonstrate that you can earn your degree from the school. The degree is listed on my resume and it helped me get a better job. I don't believe that all the complaints are baseless, but I do believe every school has similar problems in their PhD programs. I believe the national average is that 50% of students drop out from PhD programs without earning a degree.

I'm glad that @Kathy's one month experience and the completion of an introductory NCU course under her belt provided enough experience and insight that she can declare all complaints in this forum as "baseless".  I encourage Kathy to continue to share her wisdom during her journey with NCU and Rockbridge Equity.  Hopefully, @Kathy will be candid enough to share both good and bad news, and not just disappear when she becomes one of the 85% who will not finish what they start at NCU.

For the non-shills that say they completed a PhD/DBA at NCU, would you kindly share your name?  An earned doctorate is a rigorous undertaking that the holder should be proud of.  You are proud of holding an NCU doctorate... yes?

I believe that the majority of the bad reviews are from students who were not able to do the work for one reason or another. My experience within the PhD/BA program was that it was a well designed program. It was difficult and required much work. But it was also well worth it. My degree helped me get a better job and a significant raise.

I cannot believe how bad a school can be.   I have taken 4 classes and each one is worse than the last.   My very first assignment ws an "introduce yourself"  I got it wrong!  How did the instructor know me better than me!?  I had a stats class and the book didn't match the software which didn't match the syllabus.  It took the school almost 2 months to fix and they never told us. I have appealed tothe dean who always sides on the side of NO Action (hurt the student).   This is my last class.  I hope they get no government money.

I was successful in the program. It is a good program. It is difficult and it requires many hours of work per week over many years to succeed. I estimate I was spending about 20-30 hours a week on average over *five* years. When you finish, you will have a published Dissertation and a respected PhD degree. You have a choice: you can be negative and jump from school to school looking for an easy degree, or you can be positive, and work through your degree and accomplish what you set out to do.
Best of luck to all.

I've been reading several of the threaded comments below and I am not surprised.  I left NCU's PhD program in business administration for several reasons.  The school raised tuition from $1800 to $2200/course, a 22% increase, with little to no notice (Hmmm...  Overall enrollments down?  Compensating for withdrawals and lower enrollments as students catch a clue and leave?).  It's all-inclusive tuition/fee structure began in January 2011, yet NCU kept charging me the technology fee.  I had to contact the university to have it removed as all-inclusive meant "ALL-INCLUSIVE".  Nice try, NCU accounting.  NCU did away with leaves of absence AND the university requires you to maintain continuous enrollment or you're withdrawn = how they make their money.  If you don't stay continuously enrolled then after 30 days without attendance in a course you are withdrawn.  Then you have to apply to get back in and you are subject to the NEW catalog.  There is absolutely no follow through if you issue a learner complaint against a "mentor" (what they call instructors/professors/etc).  Over four courses, instructors gave vague and, at best, terse feedback--practically useless; they grade papers and don't teach a thing.  Absolutely no mentoring involved at all.  It was almost an exercise in how to get an adjunct paycheck doing the least amount possible.  Further, the business curriculum is TERRIBLE.  Example:  all syllabi have been standardized and are cookie cutter outlines--to the point that the course "mentor" doesn't have to give any instruction for assignment completion at all.  Read this chapter and write a paper with this theme.  Read this chapter and do these stat problems.  You cannot view syllabi until you're actually registered into the course.  There's a fee just to register into each course = for-profit university at work.  Also, the last course I attended required a book that was copyrighted in 2004 (6th ed.) = research that is seven years old and outdated.  NCU's website also used to tout that it was a candidate for IACBE accreditation and then, suddenly some time in 2010, that information was yanked from the NCU website.  Go to IACBE's website, click Membership at the top of the page, click Member Status Information, under Member Status Search click on All Members in the drop down for Search By Status, click Submit Search.  Do CTRL+F and type in Northcentral.  It won't come up.  Wonder why?  Pulled out???  Couldn't move forward in the process?  Hmmm...  I believe around the same time Dr. Lynn Payne, Dean of School of Business and Technology Management as of Aug. 10, 2009, left NCU and went to Jones International University.

Honestly, I wouldn't recommend this university to anybody--undergrad or grad.  Stick with Univ. of Phoenix, Walden University, or Capella.  Stay away.

              

Folks,

This is a for-profit university. The economic incentives grossly retard HOW the education is pushed to you, the low, sub-par quality of student-peers and professors, and any agreement you make will be stacked against you. Sure, you may get through a for-profit program with little fuss, but if you find yourself unhappy, you WILL BE stuck. 

So after high pressure sales tactics, I finally get my "Enrollment Agreement" that they really, really wanted me to electonrically sign, BUT they tried to get me to give them an open-ended e-signature that will give them open-ended consent on all furture agreements, changes, etc., unless you are seriouly paying attention. I call to complain, and stated my opinion as such. 

Here's my e-mailed response to thier proposed Enrollment Agreement:

"You know you're in trouble when over a quarter of an "Enrollment Agreement" details arbitration. This is a sizable red flag. 
 
So let me get this straight, I agree to allow this University to charge any and all fees throughout the duration of a 5-7 year program, all off which are subject to change; you want me to forgo my rights to sue this for-profit program in court in the event I am wronged; and, my favorite part, you get to change any term or condition at anytime you want? 
 
Yeah right. I am quite amazed that people actually enter into such a decidedly one-sided agreement that utterly protects this University and affords no protections whatsoever for the student. None! What a waste of time. It violates every precept of contract law, fairness, and consideration. I'll be sure to articulate my observations on the social media / blog boards. 
 
Please withdrawal my application from Northcentral University. I have exhaustively researched the for-profit model as well as this University, and I find them both to be comical at best, devastating to higher education at worst. 
 
Respectfully, 
 
Eric"

Take the time to read. Your not engaging a student-friendly education institution. You are entering in an agreement that was written for shareholders and the protection of the bottomline.  

I just graduated from Northcentral University this last month with a Master's Degree and if I decide to do a PhD I will also do it with NCU. From start to finish is was a great experience. It was challenging, but I wouldn't expect anything less. Education is a process and in order to be successful you must know what you want and be ready to complete the necessary tasks to achieve it. With that being said I believe anyone wanting a challenging and accredited degree would be satisfied with NCU.

Hello,
  It is possible to complete the degree at NCU, but it requires a lot of patience and hard work. If you get a "resubmit", you should work to correct the issues pointed out. Overall, I would recommend the school and found it to have a well designed program which leads to a published Dissertation and a regionally accredited PhD.
Best

I had been with NCU since the end of 2004, and have seen it change from a nice little online university (flexible and reasonable in cost) to an inflexible, expensive profit squeezing enterprise. NCU says that program changes and policies are due to accreditation requirements, but there is no stability in policies and programs here, so how can that look to the accrediting body? Also the academic advisers are largely comprised of nice young people without any customer support skills. I would never recommend this school at the Doctoral level to anyone. The minimal contact educational model (you are on your own) works up to the dissertation stage. There, help is needed, but it is not built into the process. I am looking at South African Universities to complete my PhD. There, although you are on your own also, you are not exposed to ridiculous schedules and angst about program changes. The doctoral level people that recommend this school by and large were under the old regime.     

After 4 years of putting money into the bottomless pit of ongoing changes, I'm moving to another school. Of the top 6 "leaders" at NCU, 3 are newly minted NCU graduates- 50%. This suggests to me that creditable leaders won't be hired or don't apply to avoid association. There have been 3 deans in the school of business in my 4 year tenture, 2 or 3 deans in the school of education, 3 Provosts in 4 years, reports (from other blogs) of internal employee harassment within the NCU ranks. I'm reporting my educational experience of chaos to Dept of Education, HLC accreditors, and IRS. Sadly, I didn't go to the blogs before joining or I would not have invested in an organization that is in flux, high employee turnover, apparently lack of leadership. Now all the concept papers from a number of PHD students that was previously approved are no longer acceptable - this means more money. I didn't realize NCU was partially owned by Quicken Loans - that would have been revealing to me had I known. On a positive note, I believe the faculty are doing the best they can with no real leadership in place, they even apologize for all the changes that occur that make no sense to them. 

disappointed in the 

I'm taking my 3rd class at NCU. I have had very good mentors so far. Every assignment has been returned in a few days and I have always had my questions answered. I expect that just like at other schools I will get a mentor that stinks eventually. For now, I like the school. I like it because it has suggested due dates. I was so burnt out on mandatory discussion questions and dates at National, Brandman and UOP. I do not like that the classes are a semester and I wish that they would make the Doctoral classes 8 weeks like they have the Master's classes. I do get overwhelmed sometimes at the amount of work the dissertation is, but who doesn't? NCU seems to be trying to break each component of the dissertation down in baby steps which is helpful to me. 

Totally going along with the majority here.  NCU has been a total waste.  The grading practices are not right and not consistant with in the education program.  I have tried to get help from the Dean about a class regrade with no luck.  I am hoping that others will see this comment about NCU online before registering. You will pay alot of money and really just get a headache in return.  Look elsewhere for an online degree this college is a joke.   

Beware, cancel you credit card after you graduate from this university.  Their finance department charge my credit card $100 for admin processing fees 3 months after I graduated.  The online payment system will not allow you to delete your credit card number, so I had to request a brand new card from my bank just to avoid future charges from this school.

All this online vs b&m arguing is ridiculous. They are 2 different animals. For those of us who didn't go to a b&m before entering the workforce we have 2 choices: quit our jobs and move back in with mom while we take out loans and enroll in a b&m full time (sure), or, finish our degrees at an online while we continue to work. I suppose the b&m snobs think people should not be allowed to pursue their educational goals if they didn't get a degree immedietely after high school. Strange viewpoint. Some of us did not have that option. And one wonders why supposed Ivy league or tier 2 grads would be prowling around on online college review sites anyway.

Hello,
 I was successful in completing the degree. I was a tier 2 PhD student 10 years ago, and was unable to complete that program due to a disability and several other problems, not the least of which was the day time schedule of courses and 2 hour commute. After four years of recovering from my disability, I found NCU and worked on the program for about five years. There were tough times, but I managed to complete the PhD. My requirements for a program were that it be a) regionally accredited, b) that it lead to publication, and c) that it be online or part time. NCU fit the bill and I was successful after *a lot* of hard work. I don't believe all the negative reviews on the blogs. I do believe that stricter entrance policies might help, but that all candidates should be given consideration. Overall, I would recommend NCU. I would like to now apply for a post-doc. Thanks and Best Regards.

If you are thinking on on going to this school RUN RUN RUN away.  I thought that I would ignore all the bad reviews, and enroll at NCU.  My enrollement advisor was nice and told me how they take a Mentor approach and made it sounds very personable.  This is far from the case for my first and last class at NCU my first Mentor (i.e. teacher) didnt respond for almost a month of the course keep in mind the courses are 3 months long, I was getting B's once she responded then she stopped responding. I called the school to ask if this was normal and got yelled at and treated badly.  Finally after much work and having to fill out tons of paperwork i was assigned a new Mentor this new Monstor I mean Mentor barely gave me C and his feedback was base not how I could improve my papers but to list how stupid me and many of the students in his class were and that the University should have made all of take remedial classes.  From there he gave me B grades and I followed what little constructive critique he gave to the letter and then on the final project he gave me a D-  even when I did exactly what he told me to do.  For those of you reading this it might sound like it was just me; however, I took my papers to the writing centers at the other major Universities in town and was told that I should have received a better grade.  When I brought this to the schools attention they just said to take the advice from the Mentor and move on to the next class.  This is just one of many problems that I have had from academic advisors to financial aid and the list goes on.  I am confused on how this place is has accreditation.  I doubt they will have that or a student body for long.  There are alot of post on here that argue about people not being able to handle the rigour of the courses that is not the case I graduated Cum Laude with my MBA and I am going to another school for my DBA and I am excelling and the classes are very hard to get through.  The big difference is having a good school and good professors.  Not overworked graders they call Mentors.

I returned to college at age 44 and after 20+ years to finish my bachelors degree. I just completed my third course for NCU.  I find NCU more challenging than a "brick & mortar" school in that you must complete eight assignments (generally research papers) for each course (as opposed to sitting in lectures, taking an occasional test and writing one paper for a course as I did at UW-Milwaukee).  You must have completed the assigned reading/research and the papers demonstrate that one understands the material, and can apply it.  

The APA format was difficult for me at first, but I use the book rather than Reference Database or other APA software, as I found the book simply works better. NCU also has a great writing center link for students to use. 

The mentors have been great; very experienced in their professions and I am impressed at their caliber.  The mentors I had made themselves accessible to me through email & cell phones, and always helped me to understand the material when I asked for help.  In addition, two of my mentors returned my graded assignments with notes and corrections, so I could see their feedback and in the case of APA formatting, could see how it should be done.  Going back to NCU, and knowing how to conduct online research and use research databases (as opposed to the old index cards I was used to in the 80s!) has also helped me with my Certified Public Manager Program courses at the University of Wisconsin.  

I have never had any problems with contacting my adviser, nor have I experienced any issues/problems with Financial Aid.  Based on in-state tuition rates and rates at private universities such as Concordia or Marquette, I feel NCU's tuition rate is fair and in-line with in-state tuition rates in Wisconsin.

Overall, I am very satisfied with NCU thus far.  As of May I will have completed 5 courses, and their accelerated semesters (6 credits is full-time; 3 months to complete) allows me to finish my degree far more quickly as well.  NCU is demanding, rewarding, and I would highly recommend it to others provided they have the self-discipline to complete the courses.  

It is sad, but I have to admit that only a handful of comments on this board is relevant to the main topic: how good or how bad NCU is. This board should be Q&A from prospective students to existing ones or the the alumni of NCU.
Just a Guy is creating a mess out of the boards linked to all on-line schools. His posts are repeating the same rhetorics about how B&M schools are more respected in the academia than their on-line counterparts. God knows, we don't need this kind of useless input.

What I need to know is:
1. How good are the instructors in NCU - what kind of degrees and from what schools do they have; how fast do they respond to students' questions; how knowledgeable are they about the subject they teach?
2. Is NCU interested in prolonging the education process as opposed to giving a quality education?
For example, Walden charges per quarter, as opposed to per credit. While at the first glance it seems great - you can fit more classes for the same money, it looks like WaldenU takes an advantage of it in the Dissertation stage by prolonging the process.
3. It is a fact that it is you who makes his diploma shine, not the vice versa, if you graduate from any school but top 10 (50). It would be interesting to know, however, how many of NCU alumni were able to succeed after graduating - in academia, in corporate world, in public sector. Especially it would be educational to find out how many of the PhD in Psychology were able to get licensed in their states.

Thanks in advance for insightful answers. 
Please, likes of JAG - do not bother responding.

I just started at NCU in October. I have had no problems yet and am impressed with the writing center, weekly webinars, and commitment the school has to get each student to complete their degree. My second class was due to start this past Monday but unfortunately I had to have surgery yesterday morning. I emailed the school as soon as I found out and my academic adviser, Stacey, took care of everything: dropped me from the class, and enrolled me to start in a new class to start next Monday.

All the complaints I have read on here are baseless. All schools raise tuition annually and there are going to be problems in the admin offices. You are going to have crap teachers who don't keep office hours or respond to calls/emails at any university. Education is not solely up to how you interact with the school or teacher, education is determined by how much you devote to study and outside reading.

NorthCentral University is a scam.  I took a Phd class in November 2010 and completed it in January. I have been waiting for my student loan reimbursement until today I haven't received a penny.  I called the financial aid many times asking about my change and the story that I was given is that the money was deposited in my account.  I have been waiting and nothing shows up in my account.  Now, I'm taking my second class and still waiting for my first semester reimbursement.  This school is a scam they just want to take your money in any way.  I'm reporting the matter to appropriate people.  When you see NCU ran for your life and don't look back.  Run, run, run, run!!!!!!!!!!

You're kidding: You mean remuneration, right?  I don't believe there are any validity studies showing a positive correlation between entrance exams (e.g., GRE) or GPA and learning outcomes.  It's an unvalidated argument that sounds like it should be right, but it isn't.  With the global model of learning changing rapidly (many top-tier, even Ivy league universities offering classes, partial, or full degrees online), this represents the next step in education of a global and online society.

This school should be shut down immediately! Seriously, the mentors are nothing more than folks that collect a paycheck for providing feedback on APA format. The course syllabi are outdated and confusing. Don't waste your time and or money!

This school should be shut down immediately!  Seriously, the mentors are nothing more than folks that collect a paycheck for providing feedback on APA formatting.  They course syllabi are outdated and confusing.  Don't waste your time and or money!

Whatever:

I think you'll agree most schools assess registration fees, I can't speak to high pressure tactics or withdrawal fees. Am I to assume you're speaking from first hand experience?

taking a couple of courses to "see how it goes" comes with 1) registration fees 2) high pressure sales tactics 3) withdrawal fees. fees to stop a program? no thanks.

Whatever:

Some might say NCU is in continuous growing pains as a relatively new for-profit school. With dramatic changes in legislation aimed at the for-profit institutions, these pains are going to be with NCU for the near future.

Regarding not attending NCU, certainly, each student needs to perform their own due diligence; however, we all recognize NCU must be doing something right as it is still in business with just under 5000 (2007/08) students enrolled. 

As I've said in previous posts, take a course or two at the institution of your choce and see how it goes.

NCU has been going through growing pains since 2007.  How long do the students have to suffer before NCU gets their act together?  The solution is easy.  Don't go to NCU.  Spend your Title IV loan dollars at a school where you actually have a chance of graduating from.

An amazing flood of "happy" students within the last week.  NCU's shills must be setting the stage for a media blitz.  Lipstick on a pig comes to mind.  PT Barnum would be proud of NCU's marketing tactics.

Have heard good and bad about NCU.  I hear the school is going through a number of growing pains and a potential overhaul.

Just a Guy:
Hello! I see that you have been so misinterpreted. Wow! And to think these are educated people with various degrees, expertise,etc. I see your point of view and its just that. I think that just because you have a point of view does not mean you are trying to shove it down anyone's throats. I like the way you back up what you are simply discussing.

Clearly Funny:

Yup, the for-profits have brought this upon their respective organizations. Legislation, if passed, will certainly have a significant deleterious effect on the larger institutions who always seem to find themselves negatively in the press. Perhaps the more credible of these organizations will survive. These aggressive recruiting tactics and open enrollment practices are why many land here to complain, they should have never been admitted in the first place.

HA HA, just add the ww w to the link.

forbes.com/2010/08/01/higher-education-student-debt-opinions-best-colleges-10-harkin.html

Two Cents:

Ah, you've asked a "double-barreled" question (you'll learn more about this concept in your research courses at NCU I'm sure). (a) Who should earn more and (b) be the boss? 

Neither question is relevant to post-secondary education completion or the gainful employment debate. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard if I recall... We've both met very academically gifted people who have no business being in a leadership position.    

Being a good leader who earns a respectable salary is not necessarily a result of post-secondary education.

How about student A graduates from IVY league school with a degree in "breathing air" while student B graduates from state colleges with degrees in math. Who should earn more and be the boss ? I think there are many companies who would still pick the IVY candidate even though that candidate may not be the most qualified.

Two Cents:

I am opposed to any governmental intrusion into post-secondary education. Post-secondary should be completely individualized. The proposed gainful employment legislation suffers a significant weakness, that is, individual ambition. 

Two students enter an educational program at any institution, one student earns As, the other student earns Cs. The A student joins campus clubs that enhance future career goals, the C student does not. The A student completes job related internships during the summer, the C student does not. The A student through the summer internships is offered a reputable position at graduation, the C student does not. 

Both students graduate on time; however, each will have significantly different careers paths with wide ranging salary differentials. You see my point…

One final example: Student A graduates from one the well known Ivy League schools with a degree in “breathing air.” Student B graduates from a non-regionally accredited bottom ranked diploma mill also with a degree in “breathing air;” who do you think will earn more? 

Gainful employment is a slippery slope…

Hello,
  I just watched the College, Inc special. I wanted to comment that the issue of "gainful employment" should also be a requirement of the not-for-profits as well as the for-profits. For example, certain majors at non-for-profit schools are not very lucrative. With rising tuition costs, I don't think a school can boast that "it doesn't matter what your degree is in, as long as it says x school on it". I chose NCU because it fit my criteria of a) Regional Accreditation, b) online/part-time, c) cost effective, d) provided a PhD program in my major.

Caveat,

Thank you for your words of reassurance!  I actually attended a few professional development conferences as an undergrad and some of them "boasted" that their particular conferences were more difficult to be accepted into than the average not-for-profit graduate school.  We'll see; I've submitted my applications and materials.  Hopefully I'll get in!

I know I want to teach.  I actually did an undergraduate internship working as a TA for one of my professors and I really loved it!  I've seen a few hybrid Ed.D. programs that I haven't yet ruled out at some state universities.  I agree with you 100%.  Before I understood the difference between for-profit and not-for-profit, I called one of the popular for-profit schools.  I was really surprised because as someone who attended state universities, I wasn't used to being "sold" on a degree.  I know the for-profit schools work for a lot of people, but I'm just afraid to spend so much money on one of those programs when I can spend less at a state school and not have to worry about whether or not a future employer will take me seriously.  Do you teach as an adjunct or are you working toward tenure?

Aspiring:

Thanks for the kind words. It won't surprise you to learn the virtual learning environment is still developing. Since you'd like to teach and conduct research, a terminal degree (a doctorate) is certainly part of your future. 

The answer to your question is, it depends. If you're an average person, not a Bill Gates or Micheal Dell and others who have dropped out of Ivy league education because they are brilliant, then you'll want to attend and graduate from (both are corollary)the best university you can attend.

If you can't quit your day job and desire to teach a little "night school" as an adjunct at State U or any other of the for-profits, and conduct a little personal research, then attend a regionally accredited institution that fits your lifestyle. 

I earned my EdD from a not-for-profit hybrid program less than five years ago. The degree has already paid for itself. Which leads me to my final comment, ensure the degree pays for itself in a reasonable amount of time. 

Lastly, consider this, less than 50% of all individuals who begin a terminal degree complete it. This level of education is not for everyone, many of the folks who arrive here to complain underestimated their academic ability in my opinion predicated upon previous weak academic experiences. The for-profit admissions representative is not going to worry about this history when they "sign you up."

Caveat,

I've read several of your posts and I am very interested in them as they seem credible and in my opinion, unbiased.  Can you please give me your opinion regarding RR's assessment of online, adjunct teaching being deemed the 'McJob' of the 21st century?  Are we really seeing outsourcing?

I just graduated from a B&M state school in Arizona with my bachelors degree.  I have applied to a couple of graduate schools at B&M state schools because I want to eventually teach (and do a little research).  I'm concerned now about my career path.  Do I need to change direction?

Thank you for your input.

Another Question:

Use caution utilizing universities external to the United States. Rest assured, if you have a challenge with a university outside the U.S., you'll have little hope of rectifying it. My suggestion, try a course at the for-profit of your choice and see how it goes. It might be a good fit for you, just keep in mind some of the obstacles others have encountered and be on the lookout for these obstacles.

Another Question:

Stumbled on this interesting international DL school today.  Swiss Management Center (SMC) University.  Business program is ACBSP accredited (like NCU) for their professional doctorates in 4 specializations.  PhD in Economics, accreditation is ECBE.  No residency requirements noted, but the "final grand exam" and dissertation defense is in Switzerland or Austria.  Course work is performed on your schedule, no deadlines.  Definitely only for the self-starter student.

The professional doctorate cost is about a third of NCU, starting at $13,500 + 1 travel trip.

PhD tuition is "free", but has a program start fee of $313 and $1,880 annual library fee.  Not exactly free, but if you can finish in under 3 yrs, then $6k + 1 trip for a PhD isn't bad.

Another Question:  I could come up with a snarky answer like "Anywhere but NCU", but that would add no value to your question and this discussion.

Since the tuition and fees cost have skyrocketed at NCU, it is no longer the bargain it used to be.  That opens the door to many of the higher priced for-profit schools.  TUIU at $575/crhr x 44 credits + dissertation costs as an example for a lower cost PhD.

Most folks state that they want a PhD so that they can teach.  At this moment in time, online doctorates will have a tough time getting into a teaching gig in a brick & mortar school.  Forget about tenure anymore, even for those with b&m credentials.  For those teaching online, the pay is poor for the effort required.  I've even heard about academic outsourcing.  Google FHSU and StraighterLine for more info.  The growing reality is that adjunct teaching is rapidly becoming the McJob of the 21st century.  Ask yourself how a doctorate is going to serve you once the adjunct teaching gig gameplan is no longer in play.  Perhaps a low cost professional DETC doctorate from CSU or CalU becomes an option. 

I work for a global corporation that values international degrees at the same level as US degrees.  There are a number of bargains out there that might be worth a look at.  UNISA is the easy standout as a dissertation-only style program (depends on degree specialization).  Alternately, there are some promising Malaysian PhD programs that have been established in the last few years.  Russian or Ukrainian universities may also be a good value due to the stronger US currency, if you're from the states.  I don't/won't champion any particular school, but hopefully there is some content in this post that sparks some productive research avenues.

Hello RR,
 Is there an alternative to NCU that you might recommend?
Thanks

RR:

Thanks for the great feedback. This is indeed the type of information folks  are looking for when they arrive at a site like this. As far as HLC or BBB policing NCU, they don't need to as long as folks will vote with their wallet as you did and leave the institution when they are unsatisfied with their education(s) at NCU and other like universities.

PhD in Business Admin., specialization in Applied Computer Science.  MBA prerequisites met via transfer credit. Completed the course portion of the program, 8 classes for 32 crhr out of program total of 56 crhr.

If you see this comment, could you please elaborate on what transferred in?
I am working on an MBA at NCU and want to enroll in the PhD.  Will my MBA credits transfer into the PhD?  I see that Fort Hays has an agreement where their MBA courses transfer into NCU so why wouldn't my NCU MBA courses transfer into NCU's PhD?
I emailed my advisor but would like to hear about your experience as well. 
Thanks

RR:

Thanks for your comment, very insightful and objective. Can you share with us which NCU degree program you engaged, what level: undergraduate, graduate or doctorate? How many classes did you complete before deciding to leave the University?

(continued)

"Another question" suggests registering a complaint with the HLC.  I can speak from experience that the HLC takes no action on complaints.  They even say that on their website, forms and documents.  The accrediting agencies are not a friend of the student.  Back when I was at NCU, many of the staff and board were consultants for the HLC.  As an outside observer, I don’t see an impartial assessment of the school by the HLC.  The BBB and the HLC have a lot of similarities in who they truly work for and report to.

I think “Another question” also hit the bullseye with their assessment of “they rubber stamp assignments… up until a point”.  Sheepishly, I admit that there were more than a few NCU class assignments that should have been sent back to me for correction, or just outright failed.  But I think rubber-stamping is prevalent throughout both for-profit AND non-profit schools.  This leads many students to a false sense of entitlement.  However, in the six universities I’ve attended (graduated from three), NCU’s rigor has been the most weakest in terms of quality and quantity of assignments.

One last note.  The favorite and often repeated statement of folks attending and defending the NCU programs is that a real student shouldn’t require handholding to achieve graduation.  I agree.  While students aren’t entitled to a degree, they are entitled to qualified instructors.  Isn’t that what a portion of the student’s $600 per credit tuition is paying for?  Research professors should be capable of teaching research courses.  The two NCU research class instructors I had were not qualified to teach research and thankfully didn’t rubber stamp the grade.  As a result, I earned a degree from another school.

NCU targets government and military sources for students because of the generous tuition assistance programs associated with those entities.  Many of the staff/instructors I interacted with at NCU had military backgrounds, probably to enhance NCU's ability to get into the military/government tuition markets.  From my military experience, a long term program of study, even 100% DL, would have been very difficult.  And not having to pay the tuition out of pocket would make it easy to walk away from the program.  I think the open entrance requirements and “free” tuition leads to a very low commitment level by the student.  The low graduation rates (1% stated earlier seems a bit low, but if close, yikes!) reflect an equally low level of commitment by NCU, bordering on contempt for the student.  As “caveat emptor” mentions, word will get out and NCU will suffer in both reputation and by lower attendance.

NCU is milking the government and military knowing that the students are quick to sign up and just as easily quick to walk away.  By extension, this causes NCU to invest nearly all their time and money in the course portion of their programs, leaving little for the research and dissertation phases.  Results?  There is little support for the student in the post-course phase of their degree in terms of qualified research professors.  NCU instructor churn during the research and dissertation phases has been mentioned in a wide variety of forum discussions and blog posts, especially within the last year.  Is NCU support so bad that even the instructors don’t want to be there?  Too bad for students who have to restart their research or dissertation because of a change in their chair or committee.

"Another question" suggests registering a complaint with the HLC.  I can speak from experience that the HLC takes no action on complaints.  They even say that on their website, forms and documents.  The accrediting agencies are not a friend of the student.  Back when I was at NCU, many of the staff and board were consultants for the HLC.  As an outside observer, I don’t see an impartial assessment of the school by the HLC.  The BBB and the HLC have a lot of similarities in who they truly work for and report to.

Greetings:

I watched a PBS Frontline documentary last night titled "College Inc." Very interesting and a must see for anyone considering a for-profit education. The foci of the documentary was unethical recruting and admissions processes, cost, exorbitant student loans, accreditation, and overall quality of education. One commentator referred to for-profit education arena as the "fast foodization" of education. 

Argosy, Ashford, Everest and UoP were also mentioned by name serveral times in the piece (NCU is not mentioned). Litigation against UoP and Everest were also discussed. 

This site will not allow the posting of URLs; however, it's easy to locate this documentary using your favorite search engine, search for: Frontline College Inc. If you believe the challenges NCU faces are unique, they're not. It appeasrs many for-profits suffer from these same issues. I should repeat, NCU was not mentioned in this documentary.

Another Question:

I believe "victimization" is probably a harsh term. Scam, I don't know. Deceptive practices, NCU doesn't guarantee degree success in any of the literature I've perused. If you scan some of my previous posts, I allude to adults who know their academic history is weak, know they won't perform well on the GMAT, GRE, MAT, etc. 

These adults seek an open enrollment university just for this reason; however, they don't objectively assess their own academic prowess (ability). They presume their previous "night school U" experience is sufficient enough to succeed in a virtual graduate or doctorate program. It is this adult student hubris or ignorance that feeds this phenomenon of failure. If there were rigorous admittance standards many of these students would not be admitted and would not be here complaining. 

You are correct concerning doctorate degree completion, even at the best brick and mortar schools, the completion rate is about 50% (see my post of April 1, 2009 at 1:50 p.m.). Although I believe NCU could do a better job screening potential candidates (they essentially have little admittance requirements), the student is primarily responsible for their academic success and degree completion potential. To your point, it would not surprise me to learn the doctorate degree completion rate at NCU was 1%.

Eventually, word will get out, and this could hurt NCU in the long run. If you hear from enough of your colleagues that NCU is a "tuition trap," then you won't attend, and others won't either.

Caveat,
  Your points are well taken. Is there any blame that the school should carry in addition to the lax entrance criteria ? For example, does the school have unqualified faculty ? A bad program, etc. Or is it just a *scam* to take in tuition money when the school never really had a desire to graduate the sheer quantity of students they enroll. For example, is it that they rubber stamp assignments with the grade of "A", and all is seemingly well up until a point, where they are no longer granting an "A", and repeatedly reject papers submitted. Then the student/victim of the scam just quits the school and goes trying to complain on a blog. My recommendation is that those students take action against the school for deceptive business practice. If the number of failures and disappointments are so large, then there should be something that can be done on behave of those who where victimized. My understanding is that this school has less than a one percent graduation rate.

Another Question:

This is the million dollar question, and I beleive I have an answer for you. NCU is a for-proift open enrollment educational institution. As I have mentioned in previous posts, any potential student who has regionally accreditied transcripts in one hand and a check in the other is "admitted." 

Students who are confused as to thier academic ability enter the virtual world of education. They complete some courses, those courses may actually appear easy, they produce an outstanding GPA, then they run int a tough Professor, or begin a thesis or dissertation and run into significant roadblocks concerning their academic abilty. 

They get stalled at this point, no one at the main campus wants to listen or help very much (much like Greg Kent's experience at NSU. Post March 2, 2010 at 2:12 a.m.). The ex-student lands here and finds a place to voice their complaint(s). Absent entrance hurdles (GMAT, GRE, MAT, etc), everyone shows up at the front door believing they are entitied (I used this "loaded" term intentionally) to post-secondary education, they soon learn that they are simply not prepared for this level of education, fail for numerous reasons and land here.

Many of the complaints posted here are a derivative of this situation. Open enrollment, no admissions rigor, students spends a bunch of money and doesn't graduate. You'd be angry too. When in fact, if the student was denied admission due to lack of academic ability or history, this situation would not occur. But then, NCU would miss significant revenues from these denied admissions students.

One has to wonder, if so many people are upset with the school, as to what can be done to remedy that. For example, should those people complain to the Higher Learning Commission? Should they file a complaint? There must be a reason why so many people are upset with the school.

Hi All,
Yes, it's my real name. Why should I be afraid to use my real name? Why are you? I am currently taking my fourth course (DBA Business) and have a 95% average. Twenty years ago I had the same average after completing ALL of the course work at Southeastern University (a.k.a. Nova University) D.B.A program. So, why am I here? Firstly, I love to learn and secondly, my dissertation committee (Nova) was a bunch of ***holes (they censored my original word). Hopefully, this time will be different. If it's not then I will have gained much and lost very little. Morale of story: "Nothing ventured nothing gained."

Hi, I'm beginning a doctorate degree at NCU and I don't care what anyone thinks or says about the school.  I chose the school based upon my own research of more than 6 months and based upon my situation and my needs, which is what everyone who is looking for a degree should do.  Just because joe shmo had a bad experience at a college, doesn't mean I will.  I am a teacher at a college.  I have wonderful students and I have not so wonderful students.  It's my experience in teaching that has shown me that each individual will have the experience that they desire to have - a wonderful one, or a miserable one...  It's up to YOU !!!  Not the school.  NCU, BTW, is not only regionally accredited but they are also listed on the department of educations website as being accredited so...  is the government part of the scam as well?  Well, then all schools are in trouble, right?  IT's UP TO YOU what experience you will have at a college.  I'm due to start NCU in April and guess what, my experience "will be" positive because I said so...  it's up to me to make it happen.  And at the doctorate level, you should not need much guidance.  If you've made it that far, you have the ability to do it all by yourself.  Aagain, being a teacher myself..., I'm nice to students who are nice to me...  So why don't you be nice to your instructor and maybe they'll be nice to you, instead of complaining all the time.

>>  It appears you had a good experience at NCU?

Yes, I did.

Take care, bye.

Newbie:

We can't, that why I said "I am assuming at least 50% of these posts are negative (I could be wrong)"

Amateur Scholar:
 
It was never my intention to debate the merits of online education with you or suggest that online education lacks credibility. It appears you had a good experience at NCU? This is what you should be sharing in my opinion, your personal experiences at NCU, you might assist someone in making this significant decision. I do have one point of contention with your previous comment, there are many AACSB online MBA programs, check out geteducated.com. As a neophyte researcher myself, I enjoy this forum and the time I spend here. Perhaps my comments might help someone. Thanks for your time and opinions, I certainly appreciate them.

In addition, open enrollment aside, the for-profits are certainly focused on a particular segment of the market that the non-profits just refuse to consider seriously. From the B&M schools that I studied at, and the grades I got, especially for my MBA, my getting in a non-profit doctoral program was not the problem. But as a corporate executive, giving up my job just to pursue my scholarly ambitions was not something I was willing to do. Simply said, I couldn't "afford" to advance my studies with a non-profit. 

The AACSB refuses to recognize online format as a valid delivery method. Then they rant about how their schools are increasingly slipping away from industry/real-world relevance. This is also true in the case of the top MIS journals. On the one hand, they take pride in the high standards they set by admitting only the finest academic papers. Then, somebody points out that in the real-world of MIS, things are progressing fast with little regard for many of these well-written, but highly theoretical studies that have little immediate business impact. 

Open enrollment, flexible delivery format, convenient continual learning are all the key touchpoints that for-profits have executed very well and that's why they attract a sizeable following. I AGREE with you that the number of people cut out for doctoral studies are few. Perhaps with your Ed.D, you can write a paper to discuss how admission standards should be set to raise the bar higher - what is the cut-off point and what recommendations you can give to the accreditation agencies, and so forth. You can even give your reasons why you suggest this.

Anyway, I think if you would do that, and get that paper published, you would actually be making better use of your Ed.D. A study like this would also expose you more to the world of for-profit and non-profit and allow you to gain a deeper understanding of both.

Till then, I wish you well, and am signing off this forum.

Thanks and good night.

Amateur Scholar & TooMuch:

(continued from above) Admittedly, I am not familiar with all of these institutions; however, many of them are well known, and many appear to for-profit with open enrollment admissions. I am assuming at least 50% of these posts are negative (I could be wrong). It would have taken a tremendous amount of time to sort all of the comments into cases, perhaps three cases: (a) positive, (b) neutral, and (c) negative (although it might make for an interesting dissertation). 

Here's my hypothesis, if it were not for the open enrollment admission policy most of these listed universities employ, there would be far fewer complaints on this site resulting in fewer reviews. Yes, admitting everyone is certainly egalitarian; however, many of these folks are not going to make it, someone should have told them this, and they're going to spend a bunch of money and not graduate. This is where admission hurdles actually helps the prospective student. It lets them know some of their chances for success. These same students then discontinue their studies for a plethora of reasons and land here to complain

Amateur Scholar & TooMuch:

I'm not sure why we're quibbling over perception and the power of opinion. We ask other people's opinions all the time. The credibility of this post really isn't the issue. I believe the issue is the number of posts and how many of these posts are negative.

So, I cut and pasted the entire college list (N=454) into a spreadsheet. I then did a little sorting, the top twenty universities with the most numerous reviews are: (with the number of reviews listed beside them, don't mind the double entering, this was a result of cutting and pasting the list into the spreadsheet)

Ashford University (207 reviews)		207
Kaplan University (158 reviews)		158
American Military University (129 reviews)		129
Grantham University (111 reviews)		111
Columbia Southern University (108 reviews)		108
Western Governors University (106 reviews)		106
Northcentral University (104 reviews)		104
Walden University (93 reviews)		93
University of Phoenix (90 reviews)		90
Capella University (72 reviews)		72
Warren National University (71 reviews)		71
Seton Hall University (65 reviews)		65
Argosy University (63 reviews)		63
Norwich University (58 reviews)		58
Ashworth College (51 reviews)		51
Touro University International (38 reviews)		38
Henley-Putnam University (34 reviews)		34
Grand Canyon University (33 reviews)		33
New York Institute of Technology-Ellis College (33 reviews)		33
Thomas Edison State College (28 reviews)		28

Some simple stats:

Mean: 82.60
Mode: 33
Median: 71.70
STDEV: 46.30
Range: 28 - 207

I'm not going to focus on any one school, and I'll let you compare for yourself. Many of the well-known for-profits are far above the mean, median and standard deviation for the number of comments. Look at the range, consider this is the top ten out of N=454 universities and number 20 has only twenty-eight reviews. It's painfully obvious there is a trend here (continued below)

Good points, TooMuch! I appreciate your frank honesty.

=============================

Dear Dr. Emptor,

Sigh. 

1. I don't know why the NCU forum is being compared to a Harvard forum, perhaps this is a good thing.

2. The financial cost and the emotional investment of a meal at a restaurant cannot be compared to the financial cost, the social and emotional investment for an advanced degree. Hence (umm ... for me anyway ..), I wouldn't exactly use the same way to assess both of these.

3. IMHO, these forums really lack so much in terms of rigor that the use of these forums themselves warrant a "caveat emptor", don't you agree? Since you mentioned you are Ed.D, I'm sure you can recall your research methods classes so I won't say more. 

BUT .. the true gem today is this.

YES ... you are right in that the main argument finally crystallizes down to the ONE issue. OPEN admission or not? Should education be limited upfront to a few, and we risk losing undiscovered scholars OR should education be open to all, and afterward we sift and pass the truly worthy?

I really DON'T KNOW. I don't have a clever answer to this question. The majority of my educational background has been the "closed" systems, only NCU has been my first "open" experience. 

So .. "open" or "closed"? But you know, and this is my personal first-hand opinion, I tend now to lean on the "open" idea. I mean ... I have met so many interesting characters throughout my study; and you know - the ones who graduated - really are doing fine. I feel enriched knowing these folks. I know NCU grads who are CEOs, corporate managers, military veterans and some are educators working in traditional B&M schools. From the doctoral graduates I know, all of them are people of caliber. Good decent folk that just found NCU a good fit to their needs. But of course, I quickly admit that this sample itself is biased because as we already discussed earlier, NCU graduates do make the cut.

So, what to do with those that don't or can't. Thus .. "open" versus "closed". But Emptor, do you really want to be the one to say that education should be limited to the "few"?   

Anyway, I'm just drained after finishing a ton of article reviews for the upcoming Academy of Mgmt meeting at Montreal. Read some good stuff though. 

Good night and stay well all.

"Perception is reality" unfortunately that's true and that applies to everything these days, especially politics but that's for another forum.

TooMuch:

What do they say, "perception is reality, but it's not always the truth."

I'm just a casual observer that's all. I only read Amateur Scholars post and Caveat. Caveat, you compared this post to that of a consumer report guide but on this site people are merely providing their own perspectives on NCU and other schools. They don't offer the same type of analysis that you would find say when buying a car. I don't see no objective measurements by an independent and reputable organization, just opinions by observers like myself. Opinions, that's pretty much it.

Amateur Scholar:

I can appreciate your position; however, I believe this post is corollary to a consumer review publication. You know, one of those places you go looking for answers to consumer questions. If you were to tell me you were going to frequent a local restaurant you’ve never frequented, and I shared with you I had frequented the restaurant and had a horrible (horrible) experience, even if we were casual acquaintance, not close friends, you probably would choose another restaurant. You don’t want to knowingly enter into a negative experience when someone has previously warned you. With this said, I welcome all respectable opinions on this site.

I bifurcate the various comments on this site into four categories: (a) Advising: These are the good intentioned folks just trying to help by sharing their personal life experiences concerning post-secondary education; (b) Negative: There are the folks who’ve attended NCU (or perhaps another for-profit academic institution) at various academic levels and had a bad experience; (c) Opining: These are the folks who stumble onto this site during moments of complete boredom and can’t help but to have their say; and finally (d) Questioning: These are the folks who arrive at this site with sincere questions about the institution, searching for some guidance. 

As you skimmed the various comments on this board, you would probably agree with me that over 50% are negative; no science here, just casual observation. Why so many negative comments here, but none on the Harvard board? I believe I have the answer. The for-profits in particular have an open enrollment admissions policy. Minimum admission hurdles. So folks that have no business pursuing a graduate or doctorate degree walk in off the street with transcripts in one hand and a check in the other, and off they go. 

No surprise, later they’ve run into an assortment of challenges. Some challenges might include: (a) Poor previous academic rigor; (b) Lack of understanding how lonely pursuing a “virtual” education is; (c) Lack of discipline in pursuing “virtual” education; and (d) Little to no objective academic counseling. I’m sure few academic advisors would keep their jobs for very long if a “qualified” customer (notice I didn’t say applicant) was rejected due to the opinion of the academic advisor who did not believe the customer could complete the program.  

If ten people begin a doctorate program at NCU and only one completes the program, and you speak to the nine who didn’t complete the program, you’re going to be left with a negative perception regardless of how objective you might be. This is NCUs Achilles’ heal. The greater the incompletion (ABD) rate among NCU doctoral students, the more negative the message concerning NCU on the street, the fewer applicants NCU will receive. Got any good restaurant suggestions?

Part 2 of 2 continued from previous part 1 of 2 ...
(Sorry for long post)

4. Without apologizing, I do not consider the views of non-HR or mgmt folks on the matter of for-profit acceptance at private sector to be authoritative. Although I respect everybody's right to an opinion, I cannot respect an opinion of those who are not actual decision makers, but are in fact, regurgitating comments from friends, newspapers, hearsay and those inclined toward academic snobbery. 

5. Finally, without apologizing, I do not consider the views of folks not working at AACSB, ACBSP, regional accrediting agencies or familiar with the accreditation process to be authoritative on the matter of for-profit accreditation. Calling regionally-accredited institutions demeaning names and insulting their graduates is disrespectful and inappropriate. Anybody may have a poor personal experience with ONE individual, but to over-generalize and make sweeping statements just tells us so much about the writer.

I have neither the ability nor the intent to change the minds or opinions of all the esteemed posters here. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion. What I do expect though, is to be able to read assertions based on fact and first-hand experience, and that the writers will also provide the basis of their authority to comment. However, it seems that many anonymous people here with unknown backgrounds and unstated experience are making a whole lot of comments and providing very little supporting evidence.

If all the folks here are truly involved in higher education (as students, teachers, and so forth) then I think we all can do better than this.

Thank you.

Part 1 of 2
(Sorry for long post)

Caveat, I will reply to you because you at least, have obtained an Ed.D and so IMHO, earned the right to comment with authority. This said, my colleagues and I remain at a disadvantage because we do not know where you earned your Ed.D from (if its buried somewhere in the long posts upstream, kindly forgive as time does not permit me to forage.) In the interests of fairplay, you might want to share this info, so as to level the playing field.

NCU does NOT hand out its degrees so it was both challenging and rewarding for me. IF NCU DID hand out its degrees, I would have been the first to leave because I fully expected to be recognized for my doctorate when I earned it. My dissertation committee was balanced with old-school, non-profit established B&M folks so they pushed hard on writing and methodology (my dissertation was quantitative-based). As a PhD graduate, I have no qualms about using the "Dr" or placing PhD on my business card. I also list NCU in my profile and bio when I give public talks. 

So, do I think NCU is perfect? Of course not! There's always room to improve, but I have seen the efforts taken by NCU to keep on growing stronger, have really met and chatted with the academic leadership at Prescott and I'm filled with much hope and anticipation for NCU in the future. The people I met seemed so driven and focused so in them we trust. 

And now, may I exercise free speech here? 

1. Some people who grumble here seem to have forgotten, or never seem to have wrestled with old-school bureaucracy. Even B&M's can provide very interesting life lessons. Now, the distance learning format IS challenging and not for everybody; certainly NOT for the academically disinclined. That NCU is a for-profit also means they operate differently in some ways versus non-profits. Well, to me, that's the way it is. Privatization has its pros and cons.

2. Without apologizing, I do not consider the views of non-doctoral holders on the matter of doctoral studies to be authoritative. Although I respect everybody's right to an opinion, I cannot respect an opinion that I feel is just not sufficiently grounded. First, earn a doctorate, then come back and you may talk about doctoral studies with more authority.

3. Without apologizing, I do not consider the views of non-NCU graduates on the matter of NCU's academic rigor to be authoritative. Although I respect everybody's right to an opinion, I cannot respect an opinion of those who didn't make it, because I think that these people may also have difficulties elsewhere too. 

continues part 2 of 2 ...

Amateur Scholar:

Welcome to our group of "esteemed posters." It appears you had a good experience at NCU? How about sharing a bit more about this experience for those who might be considering NCU for their next degree program.

Caveat, first I never implied that you were against NCU and I don't think anyone on these forums has ever accused you of that, so we cool right? I agree that the different business accrediting bodies serve different purposes. I also agree that NCU grads and students don't need to defend themselves. I think it would be kind of difficult comparing a seasoned military officer attending NCU to a 19 year old college student attending a formidal b&m school.

Just came across this thread. Wow. So many opinions, from all angles too. I see the usual suspects are all here. The haves, the have-nots, the wannabes, those that don't want others to be, the veterans, the jilted, the rookies and the general others.

And .. just out of curiosity:

1. Who are the real PhD holders in this forum?
2. Who are the ABDs?
3. Some of you cite the opinions of HR professionals, so I guess you should be HR of ... Fortune 100? 500? 1000? - do shed some light.
4. Then, there are those who speak on behalf of academia, hence I presume you to be deans, provosts, heads of depts maybe? From which RA schools?
5. Maybe some good folks here work for AACSB or ACBSP? Would sure love to know who you are...
6. Maybe some people didn't make it? Started, but wasn't your cup of tea?
7. I'll also love to hear from those who first went to a for-profit, didn't like what they saw, then went on to a non-profit and FINISHED the PhD program there - that would be nice to know... FIRST-hand experiences, though please. 
8. And for the rest, did you get your strong opinions from newspapers, websites, hearsay, a "friend" maybe?

Sure am curious to find out some backgrounds of all the esteemed posters here... 

Who am I? Just an Amateur Scholar,I guess.

Did my PhD NCU with research focused on IT mgmt
Day job: IT mgmt spanning 2 decades
To date, presented papers in only 2 academic conferences (insignificant compared to all of you, I know)
Only 1 full research paper and 2 opeds published in journal(embarrasing!) Now working on second full paper - already in contact with some B&M people

After reading this message board, guess should be thinking of callin it quits and just solely do day-job coz the for-profit ed is so worthless that its grads can make no contribution to body of knowledege whatsoever... 

And here I was, thinkin I actually learnt and grew a lot over the past 6 years spent with many a weekend and nights poring over journals, articles, textbooks and stats...
What do I know, eh?

Sincerely yours.

Just my two Cents:

I have no significant beef with NCU. Although AACSB is directed at business programs and the ACBSP is directed at  broader educational offerings, I took issue with the "there is no difference statement" when there clearly is a difference between the quality of these two accrediting bodies and the post-secondary institutions they accredit.  

Lauding NCU for attaining the ACBSP accreditation is really nothing to get excited about when you consider the company of the schools on this list. It's a tertiary accrediting body at best. No one needs to defend NCU, and those that attempt this fate do so at their own risk. NCU will thrive or die predicated upon the post-graduation success of its graduates and its reputation in the marketplace.

Caveat, so basically there's no objective way to measure membership in one of these prestigious organizations with the outcome of potential employment capability. That's basically what I got out of that particular posting. It seemed that particular individual had some grim perspective on NCU, which is cool. He or she is right, you can't compare NCU with tier 1 or tier 2 schools.

Just my two cents:

Take a look at this posting:

IMEM January 2, 2009 at 3:03 p.m.

Are there any professions or jobs that require ACBSP or AACSB accreditation for that matter? Do any industries or organizations have this as a requirement for membership or employment? Will graduating from a school that have these professional accreditations secure employment or mobility in your profession? Those would be my questions.

Dr. G:

I have to take exception to your posting. It is disingenuous at best. AACSB is not the creator of business education, but it is the gold standard in accredited business education. Please peruse the two lists yourself (easily located on the Internet), AACSB is chalked full of highly credible well recognized tier I business schools. 

Now go to the ACBSP list, you'll quickly notice this list is 3rd, 4th and 5th tier schools with substantially less academic rigor and reputation. For those of you searching for a listing of AACSB schools, go to geteducated.com.

AACSB is not the Creator of business education. There are other accrediting bodies that offer professional accreditions that have proven to have a greater deal of success. This is why several universities toward the end of 2009 opted out of AACSB. It is not needed for any state licensure and does not guarantee anyone a job. The AACSB community is currently in a scramble to address its old guarde methods and make changes before it loses more of it's accredited membership.

Northcentral has ACBSP accreditation which shows that NCU is a solid teaching institution. Most of its students are already mid-career and an AACSB will serve little to no purpose at this point.

Kempo:

There are many highly credible virtual MBA programs out there. Look for AACSB accredited business programs.

NCU is one of the schools I would like to obtain my MBA in Finance, but it seems the school will not let me look at a syllabus from some of the classes.  Anybody going or recently obtained an MBA please email me a copy?  kemposun@gmail.com   

They did show me a link to a marketing course from the MBA, but I would like to look at other courses like OM5015 Personal Management, FIN5013 Investment Managements and others.  I like the idea that in addition to being 12 weeks, I also have the option to finish less than 12 weeks depending on my work schedule.

I agree with caveat emptor.  Since when does a concept paper require a professional editor?  I think that a professional editor should be used at the very end but before publishing the dissertation.  And that the research process should start in the beginning.  Including the school taking the stance that it must match students up with qualified faculty to supervise the thesis from the start.

Nero:

This is not about grounded verses virtual learning environments. You have echoed my sentiments (see my comment of May 27, 2009). I believe NCU has a decent program; however, it is this "open enrollment" philosopy where many students get caught. If they have attended a low academic rigor program in the past with a nonthesis or a capstone project, they might have little understanding of the complexities of the dissertation process. 

NCU should be more supportive of preparing students for the dissertation process by simply allowing them to begin this process eariler in the program. The Concept Paper at other universities does not generate high scrutiny, it is just the concept, research questions, and a brief lit review usually ten to 15 pages in length. Although all academic papers should comply with APA style, the Concept Paper should not require an editor. 

Why not allow students to begin the Concept Paper long before they complete thier course work and sit for the comprehensive exam? This would eleviate some of the frustration. If you fail to complete the course work or fail the comprehensive exam, then the progress made on the Concept would be moot.    

Even at the best B&M schools, it's seldom the course work at the doctorate level that stalls students, it's the dissertation. A second issue NCU students complain about is having to locate their own dissertation chair and committee members. Everyone can imagine how difficult this must be in a virtual world where students do not have close relationships with Professors. The university needs to take a more proactive position and locate these members for the student. 

If NCU continues to focus on revenue vice their product, their students and programs, it will die on the vine. If it desires to continue to admit "everyone" and enjoy a high attrition rate, it will suffer a reputatoin where few despite academic prowess and ability will attend and complete a terminal degree.

Hi Nero,
  In reference to your comment:

"Unfortunately, NCU allows almost anyone who has a prior degree and a checkbook to enter the program; weeding out the ‘chaff’ later as a result of the ridiculously tight submission requirements for the ‘Concept Paper’ or the dissertation. That process translates into a lot of very unhappy former students that tend to show up on sites like this and berate the program."

Isn't that deceptive business practice on the part of the school and shouldn't those students be allowed to file a class action against the school for essentially exploiting them and their dreams to get a phd by "rubber stamping" papers up until the concept paper/dissertation proposal phase, where they then "weed" out undesirables using false grading measurements such as grading based on formatting and apa standards rather than content and merit.  Anybody want to take up that case, please post on this blog.  Recruiting thousands of students and failing the majority of them *after* taking millions of dollars from them does not seem like a legitimate business practice or viable education.

(Cont)

I must agree with an earlier assessment; not everyone who wants to be a PhD has the ability to get one. Whether it is a question of aptitude or fortitude, I do not know. Unfortunately, NCU allows almost anyone who has a prior degree and a checkbook to enter the program; weeding out the ‘chaff’ later as a result of the ridiculously tight submission requirements for the ‘Concept Paper’ or the dissertation. That process translates into a lot of very unhappy former students that tend to show up on sites like this and berate the program. I’d rather NCU have some sort of qualification measure that makes that determination long before people have spent $20K+ of their hard-earned money to entertain a dream that was likely never to happen. As a result, I would say that the average PhD student at NCU may be a bit below those of a B&M, though the students who complete the program are on-par. This results in a profit windfall for the school without the requirement for justifying why there are NCU Ph.Ds walking the streets who cannot spell ‘Ph.D’. In the 13 years that NCU has existed, they’re successfully graduated…perhaps 200-250 Ph.Ds. There is a rather large disparity between the number they allow into the program and the number who actually graduate.

The previous discussions, from what I can ascertain, have all been regarding the inferiority of an online environment, yet no mention is being made of the enhancements it may afford. I work as a practicing information technologist and to take years away from my field to study in an IT vacuum (typically provided in an academic environment) would be a death sentence for my career. My qualitative dissertation is regarding a specific type of network attack in a corporate environment. I have intimate knowledge of both the environment and the attack because it is my profession and involves a skill set I’ve honed over a quarter-century. You simply can’t teach what I know in a practicum. It is an indefensible and elitist position to say that research should be conducted only by Tier X researchers who have little knowledge regarding the practical use of the theories they create. I roll my eyes at dissertations that present theoretical solutions that are fundamentally flawed and impractical in a fast-paced corporate setting. Spewing volumes of ‘information’ that serve no purpose other than as a source of citation for another grad student does nothing to serve the needs of society.

My GF of 5 years is a PhD from a Tier-1 Research School. In the course of her studies, she was utilized to grade papers, perform research for her Chair (so he could reap the benefits of peer accolades that came by way of ‘his’ research), and for cheap manual labor.  I have heard similar accounts from others who ran the B&M gauntlet, which can be described as tantamount to an academic hazing ritual. Yes, this evidence is anecdotal, but it does evidence that the delivery format is not the problem. The vast majority of the people I’ve met at NCU are working professionals, not lab-rats. If their research is founded on practicality and solves problems that emanate from naturalistic settings, then the resultant solutions serve as beneficial guidelines for solving real-world problems, not just a citation for another ABD’s paper.

Has any else experienced difficulty in the research 4 class regarding the topic paper and its grading?  I am wondering if others have had their paper rejected multiple times and if something can be done about it.  Thanks.

Yes, NCU was just awarded the opportunity to award federal loans. From my perspective Barbara didn't complain about academic rigor rather her complaints seem to lie within the administration's inability or confusion to adminster resources in a timely and proper manner.

Hi Barb:

I'm sorry to hear about your negative experience at NCU. It's hard to believe any educational institution would not have the appropriate faculty to advance student's academic programs. Do you think your experience is an excemption, or the rule? 

Although I have my own personal opinions regarding the various for-profit institutions, I didn't believe that infrastructure issues were one of them. My understanding is NCU was just awarded the opportunity to offer federal loan programs. 

My complaints regarding the various for-profits is their open enrollment environment, low academic rigor, and for-profit status. I beleive your problem would be an issue that anyone considering NCU would scrutinize.

I will have to agree with the many, many (literally hundreds) of  complaints filed against Northcentral University (NCU). I was a Ph.D. student in  the Business Administration program at the "University".  I had completed all of the course work (to the tune of several thousands of dollars), and was at the point of forming a dissertation committee.  The "University" required  one of their faculty members to head this committee.  NCU COULD NOT PROVIDE A DISSERTATION COMMITTEE CHAIR FOR MY AREA OF STUDY--FINANCE.  They forced me to accept a person who had no clue about finance or my dissertation topic!  All she could tell me was where a "comma" was missing on my comprehensive exam responses. It is not like "finance" is an specialized area where it is difficult to find faculty.  If you can't provide the RESOURCES, don't offer the program!!   

Hence, with all the problems this University had, I left the program right in the middle of my Comp exams and am stuck paying over $10,000 to them. Yes, to them--I was also a victim of their privatized student loan program at 10% APR.  NCU does NOT meet the requirements of issuing traditional Federal Stafford loans or unsubsidized Federal student loans. I should have known, right at that point, to stay away!!

NCU has a negative reputation, and I truly believe that negative reputation  will hurt a professional's resume to have their name on it.   I teach in a traditional higher education college and I do not mention ANY of the coursework completed with NCU, on my resume, for fear that it will negatively impact my career.  Obviously I am not the only one that has experienced problems with them--read the other 100+ complaints. NCU's motivation to educate you is driven soley by profit and a diploma mill type mentality.  Are you willing to risk thousands of dollars to find out what we all found out?

Rick:

I mean no disrepect, but what do they say, if you have to ask the question, then you probably already know the answer.

I had to respond to "Just A Guy's" comments and wanted to get some insight into other's opinions as well. I have two undergraduate degrees from a state school and am now working on my masters degree in education from University of Phoenix. I would love to have gone to a brick and mortar school but I work full time, take care of a home and run a business. Going back to school was a huge step for me and a big decision as to where to attend. I would love to have attended UCF or ASU but their schedule did not meet mine working full time.

As for my experience at UOP, the support I have received from my Academic Advisors and Professors (some of whom have multiple masters degrees) from UOP has been far better than any advisor I had from a state college. I am enjoying what I am learning from UOP and am studying Instructional Design and e-learning to learn how to develop online courses. This field is now exploding and I think more state schools are seeing this trend continue as the adult population grows and gets older and is returning to school.

I am seeing schools like ASU and USC now offer online courses and they are way more expensive (in the 35,000.00 range) than UOP (in the 20,000 range). Both state schools seem to have high opinions of themselves for being so new to the online education experience. 

I have found that society's role in life is to hold you back, no matter who you are in life. So the academic snobbery towards online schools is no surprise. However, the online education field is exploding. There are schools now that offer online classes for students Kindergarden through 12th. grade in high school. 

My hope is that UOP will expand their ground campuses to compete with the traditional brick and mortar schools even further. They have the building facilities and definitely the students and the credentials. Now they just need to offer classes during the day? Is this what they need to do to compete in the marketplace? 

Would this step give them more credibility or would the academic snobbery continue? Would love to hear your thoughts. 

Thanks all.

USC sucks. I attended USC, and I believe they charge alot of money for the degree. The education is good, but the professors are terrible!

I think that Bobo Shan is probably Donald Hecht, the former owner of NCU.  He spent a lot of his time responding to people's complaints about NCU under pseudonyms.  Donald Hecht had an office at SCUPS, and even his girlfriend had her own desk and phone there.  I met Donald Hecht at SCUPS's office.  SCUPS and NCU shared syllabi, IT infrastructure, and other resources, including employees. Donald Hecht instructed his employees to lie about their relationship.  I know because I worked for NCU and was made to visit SCUPS in California to help them assimilate NCU's online course system.