Northcentral University

Caveat Emptor September 21, 2006 at 6:41 p.m.

BoBo Shan seems a lot like that PR hack paid by NCU.

Read the truth at Wikipedia, before NCU has that deleted too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northcentra...

Caveat Emptor September 22, 2006 at 4:46 a.m.

You didn't read the original link, you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand the Wiki link, you have lots of opinions based on absolutely nothing but your own speculation, ignorance and hot air. This suggests you are a paid shill and not a bona fide poster.

As you know, Hecht founded NCU and operates it in the same sleazy fashion he has operated and continues to operate his other scandalous affairs. Get some real facts first, then see if you can actually handle the truth. NCU can't and apparently neither can you, which reinforces your master/shill connection.

BoBo Shan September 22, 2006 at 4:08 p.m.

Second, they are in Self Study right now for accreditation renewal by the HLC and the NCA. Third, their student population currently shows articulation agreements in which no PhD or Doctorate candidate receives more than 30 credits upon transfer UNLESS they have PhD or Doctorate Credits from another accredited college OR have credits from a college currently under contracted articulation agreement with NCU, a list of which can be found on their website. If you knew anything about the accreditation guidelines you might realize that a college CANNOT take more than 50% of the require credits for graduation into their programs from a non-accredited program. Considering they are in self study and up for accreditation renewal in 2008, I doubt that they would jeopardize their re-accreditation by engaging in the claims of “sleazy” activity you put forth with SCUPS or any other college. It does not make any sense. NCU is increasing in enrollment and is making money through traditional marketing means and continuing enrollment. Considering the small enrollment numbers at SCUPS, it would make no business sense whatsoever to risk valid articulation to provide fraudulent incentives to a few SCUPS students. Not to mention the only degree programs that share relevance between SCUPS and NCU would be the psychology programs. So now that you have been educated on the facts of the situation and you have no recourse you will once again resort to irrational claims of a conspiracy theorist simply because your entire story is not based in fact, does not follow logic, and stems directly from your biased personal opinion.

Caveat Emptor September 23, 2006 at 12:58 a.m.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

You have proven yourself to be a liar. The website where the first link was posted is down, has been down since you posted that the link didn't work, and is still down.

So either the link worked and you lied about that, or you didn't read the link and lied about that.

But then since you are obviously a paid shill for NCU you had no credibility anyway. Most likely the same shill who vandalized the Wiki page, Bert Woodall, NCU's paid PR hack. Want to go for some more lies? Tell us that you're not he.

BoBo Shan September 24, 2006 at 6:22 a.m.

Bert Woodall I am not, nor do I know of him. Ask the host to confirm IP and the truth will lie within. As it is with many house of cards built on shaky ground, the house shall fall, as did yours, and collapse without a sound. You lack sustainability in the story you present, the claims you make lie not in fact, rooted deeply in resent. As many who came before you did with nothing there to back, your tactics lie as we know now, in your attempts to just distract. “Attack” you scream, your battle cry “divert them from the light” for if they see this house of cards, they’ll know that BoBo’s right. “I cant have that” you say inside, “the evidence is clear. I’ll say that BoBo is a fraud and maybe they wont hear.” There’s nothing left of you this time, the challenge found you slacking, you laid your claims in guise of truth, and truth has found you lacking. Acts of desperation now, you sink, you’ll soon be gone. Not surprising for a house of cards, and what you built it on. You fail Emptor, you fail sir, no honor in this game. You seek the downfall of another, to lay your claim to fame. Nothing good can come of you, your story dies without a whimper, pathetic dark and lonely there, the world of Caveat Emptor.

Dee December 13, 2006 at 5:24 p.m.

BoBo Shan, I applaud your well-informed challenge to Caveat Emptor! All schools of higher learning online or otherwise have problems and most of these same schools also have great positives. NCU is no different in this regard. I believe NCU is a wonderful school with good programs.

TonyNYC January 7, 2007 at 11:23 p.m.

What is really wrong with this school (if anything)? Would someone tell me? I mean, can they really be that "crappy" if they are accredited? Considering an online DBA. Suggestions & comments welcome.

tman February 2, 2007 at 10:27 p.m.

Anyone who relies on wikpedia as a source of valid, verifiable information is no better than the town gossip who defers to the authority of 'they' and 'them' when citing the sources of their often slanted, frequently false claims.

Dee February 24, 2007 at 10:34 p.m.

I strongly disagree with your assessment of online schools, JAG. I proudly completed my Masters at Capella and I have reaped the rewards of this degree ever since I achieved it in 2003. Presently, I am a professor at a 2-year institution and I was hired especially for my experience with online education. Additionally, I am pursuing my PhD online. My current degree is deeply respected by my colleagues and I would pit the education I received at Capella against any person’s degree earned at a “brick-and-mortar” institution—any day, any time. Education, whether earned at an on-ground campus or online school, is what you make it. A person can get a degree from Harvard and still not succeed in life, due to a myriad of reasons, which are likely to include poor motivation and low tacit knowledge. Likewise, one can earn there degree from an online school like Capella or any of the others you mentioned, and achieve very high status in the industrial/occupational sphere. Indeed, what angers me so much about comments like yours is the tremendous lack of insight and utter void of fair-and-balanced consideration of the alternative perspectives. It is clear not only to me, but to credible educational research, that there is clear and present bias against online schools. In a society which is underscored by equity of opportunity, it is important to provide an array of educational opportunities to those seeking advanced knowledge and training.

Dee February 26, 2007 at 2:39 a.m.

I am not familiar with any scientific research conducted regarding occupational prospects of those whose degree was obtained from an online school versus one obtained from a traditional “brick-and-mortar” school. Nevertheless, if the 72 percent statistic you tout is true, then I would argue that this represents more the subjective bias that HR agencies hold against online degrees as opposed to an objective truth that such degrees are as good as degrees earned from “brick-and-mortar” schools. As a society that prides itself on equity of opportunity, why should we accept this limiting bias? When educational opportunities are limited by elitist and relativistic claims that an advanced education can only be obtained via traditional institutions of higher learning, then you severely restrict betterment through knowledge for only a limited population of adult learners. In my view, this is wrong.

Rick March 2, 2007 at 3:54 p.m.

Just-a-Guy, it’s obvious that you’re not familiar with how the majority of military personnel who receive their degrees while in the service obtain them.

How do you think U.S. Navy personnel on ships at sea obtain their degrees, by pulling up to the nearest brick and mortar floating university?

As for schools pressuring staff to pass unprepared students, if online universities learned that trick anywhere is was from their brick and mortar counterparts with sports teams.

Just-a-Guy, since when does business care what academia thinks?

Since when did the Chronicle of Higher Education (CHE) become the publication that measures the pulse of business? I believe it would be safe to say that the CHE is biased to the needs of its constituents, brick and mortar universities.

How many industries have increased the price of their products double digit for a decade and stayed in business? Only academia and health care, and the prevailing consumer opinion is their both a rip off. Central to both of those industries is their dependence on government funding: they don’t compete for the consumers dollars like the vast majority of business have to.

Perhaps in Fortune 500/100 companies and academic institutions the HR professionals may frown on a online degree, but in the real world the vast majority of the available jobs are not from those types of organizations and if the company does have a HR person they don’t make the hiring decisions, the department manager does.

As for government institutions, they don’t care as long as you have a degree at an accredited institution. In addition, because government institutions give preference to hiring veterans, who are getting their degrees online or at-a-distance, quite a few government employees have those – as you call them – less respected degrees.
As a degreed person and a person who is currently pursuing a graduate degree online, I’m glad that my tuition dollars are not going to support sport teams, coaches, or another capital building campaign.

As a person who received his undergraduate degree from a brick-and-mortar university, I’ve competed for positions with people who have online degrees (Excelsior College) and they didn’t have a problem getting respect for their degrees.

As a manager who hires degreed persons, I don’t care if your degree says Harvard or Capella; all a recent graduate knows is theory and how to make decisions with imaginary money; they’re going to have to pay their dues and work their way up the ladder before their given the opportunity to make 100k+ mistakes.

In addition, as a manager, as long as your degree is from a regionally accredited institution, I will respect your education and the effort you put into obtaining it.

ABHCS Jack March 13, 2007 at 3:44 a.m.

Dear Shipmate Rick,

I usually ignore these endless and aimless strings of fruitless blah, blah, blah, but you hit a nerve. I have just retired after 21 glorious years in the Navy and could not agree with you more: few, if any, DEPLOYING arm service personnel have the opportunity to attend traditional post-secondary schools.

In my case, I hold an AA from The University of Phoenix, a BS from Excelsior College (NY), and an MS from Saint Joseph's College of Maine--a very traditional school (founded in 1914) that happens to have a very good and challenging distance education program. I had absolutely no problem getting a great job after retirement and all of my degrees, together with some choice military awards, hang proudly on my office walls. My education, as yours and thousands of military men and women, has been ENHANCED by the diversity of teaching methods we have endured: CLEP exams, GRE tests, DANTES courses, online lessons, as well as traditional curricula.

In the end, what you are is more important than any piece of paper you flash a prospective employer. At some point you will have to step up to the plate and deliver a presentation, write a proposal, or lead a department. If you strike out, it won't matter if your degree is from Ronald MacDonald's University or Harvard.

BoBo Shan March 14, 2007 at 7:55 a.m.

To Just a Guy:

I cannot agree with your perception that somehow traditional colleges offering online courses are somehow superior to colleges that are totally online. In fact, in my experience the opposite is true. Although many traditional colleges are attempting to offer online courses or degree programs, their infrastructure and delivery is not set up to handle the online learner. Their service is sub par because they have no support mechanisms in place to facilitate admissions, tech support or online resources. Because colleges that are 100% online live and die by these things, you can bet that any competitive online college has great service in these areas. If not, the consumer takes their business elsewhere.

I would not place too much respect in traditional colleges offering online. After all, only a few years ago many of these same colleges were saying that online WILL NEVER be a valid form of education. When the new online colleges came in and had success, it hit these traditional colleges where it hurt, in their profit margins. They changed their tune quickly when they realized they were now dealing with educational CONSUMERS. They stopped saying that online is not a valid form of education, and started saying that online courses can be valid ONLY IF they are used to supplement traditional courses in a degree plan. They continued their stance of saying that fully online degree programs are INVALID. Now, because online is where the money exists, they have perpetuated this rumor that somehow getting an online degree from a traditional college is somehow superior to that of a strictly online. This is total crap and simply a ploy to try and keep money in their pocket. Look at is this way, most of the traditional colleges have only been offering online for the last few years. Most major online colleges have been in business for decades. Let the ground campuses be ground campuses and online be online. But don't try to claim that one is superior to the other all around. Ground is better at ground, and online is better at online. Any claim outside of this is a guise to support an agenda.

Raven March 15, 2007 at 1:21 a.m.

When I was talking about my undergrad degree, I never said I did it on-line. I am merely stating that physically attending classes and interacting with other students and faculty is a better learning environment than working strictly on-line. I don't agree with most of the stuff on this blog, but feel strongly that attending a university in a classroom environment is better than distant learning and I challenge anyone who thinks distance learning is as good as sitting in a classroom environment. C'mon, is phone sex better than the real thing? Then how can distance learning be as good? I am satisfied with my accomplishments via distance learning at NCU because it has worked well considering my schedule, but I concede that it will neither be as respected or as good as those who have obtained MBAs from sitting in classrooms at a "brick and mortar" university.

Just a Guy March 15, 2007 at 4:41 a.m.

Bo Bo, Me thinks thou doest protest too much.

Could it be that you are ashamed of your online degree?

Just a Guy March 16, 2007 at 2:01 p.m.

Look, All I said was that in academia and among HR Mangagers that degrees from traditional institutions are more respected than degrees from totally online programs. THAT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT and is not up for "Debate".

If you cannot accept this, I'm sorry. But, that does not change the fact that it is true.

As I said earlier, I want online schools to rise in acceptance but they must do a better job of screening applicants and not letting unqualified people into the program. And, when someone shows that they are uncapable/unwilling to accomplish the rigors of academia to a satisfactory standard they should not be allowed to progress in the program. If you insist on arguing these points, which are again not up for "debate" then you are doing nothing to improve the acceptance of online education. Instead, those that are making the argument for acceptance of online education in its current form are doing nothing but perpetuating the eventual downfall of the totally online programs.

Online programs at otherwise traditional schools have a way to go before they are as good as the traditional programs too...but they are getting better and they have the reputation of the traditional program to back them up.

The competition for students in the online arena is getting more fierce by the day and if the totally online programs do not want to be known as "Accredited degree mills" then they have no choice but to improve their academic standards and remove students who should not be in the program even if it costs them future tuition dollars.

Just a Guy March 16, 2007 at 8:25 p.m.

read my post from 25 FEB

just a guy March 16, 2007 at 11:17 p.m.

My point is that if you get your degree online from a traditional school and then attempt to use that degree to secure employment, the employer does not ask if you got your degree totally online. Rather, they simply accept it as a traditional degree because it is from a traditional institution. The traditional college also makes no distinction between online vs. inclass. Thus, the degree commands a higher degree of respect simply BECAUSE OF THE REPUTATION OF THE ISSUING INSTITUION. (I don't mean to shout, I just want to make that last point clear.) Whether that higher degree of respect is deserved remains to be seen and will vary on a case by case basis depending on the individual as it will for any student online or otherwise.

For what its worth, I respect people that get their degrees online. For some, due to family/career obligations, it is the only option they have.

My main arguement here is NOT against online education, but rather that the online schools should be striving to improve their reputations by ensuring that they are NOT graduating students who are going to then embarass the schools in the future.

Due to the inherent bias against the online schools (which I never denied existed) the online schools must go even further than their traditional counterparts to prove that the graduates they are turning out are of high quality. Thus far, due to their managements pursuit additional tuition dollars they have made minimal to no effort in this arena.

If you can demonstrate otherwise please let me know.

Bo Bo Shan March 17, 2007 at 3:35 p.m.

PhD Student,

Another common misconception is that people tend to lump distance learning and online learning. Online was first effectively pioneered by John Sperling as he moved from Berkley to Phoenix in the 70's. Distance learning programs existed before then but they were made up of correspondence courses or satellite cohort programs.

Sperling has a book in which he discusses the growth of Apollo/UOP and the resistance he met from the traditional industry as they lobbied against UOP constantly.

Make no mistake, the bias that exists against online is about money and power. Online has forced the hand of traditional colleges to become more service oriented. For decades, traditional colleges told students who, what, when, where and how but not why. If the student didn’t like it, they were not able to improve their education. Many traditionalists are closed to online (for profit) because they assume education should be elite. The new online colleges came in and made the education industry consumer oriented and accessible to the common person. When you began to lose students, you begin to lose money, when you lose money you lose power, you become desperate, angry, hostile. The traditional campuses went on the attack. They have failed on every real front as they attempt to keep online oppressed. The only place they have succeeded is in the public perception arena as they spread ignorance and propaganda regarding the quality of online in order to service their own personal agenda.

I am sure many have seen the NY Times article that came out about UOP. While it was poorly researched, some of the items in the article did ring true. But only true about UOP. Due to bias, people have applied the UOP issues to reflect on the whole industry. What was less publicized was Brian Muller’s letter in response to the NY Time article. I know Muller and I do not like him, he is a megalomaniac. Regardless of that, if you have a chance to read his retort, he is right on the money regarding the traditional education industry.

Just a Guy March 17, 2007 at 10:11 p.m.

Bo Bo,

So, In your opinion what school would you consider to be the "Harvard of the online schools" and are there any that you would avoid?

Bo Bo Shan March 18, 2007 at 10:20 p.m.

Boligee,

Just make sure the program is aligned with the requirements for AAMFT. Most states require AAMFT standards to apply for licensure. Check with your state board of psych too.

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 1:01 a.m.

Let me rephrase the question. In your opinion, what yould you consider to be the best online university and are there any that you would avoid and why?

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 3:48 p.m.

What is the difference between AACSB and ACBSP?

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 8:06 p.m.

So why don't online business programs pursue AACSB accredidation?

Just a Guy March 20, 2007 at 12:20 a.m.

Is there a chance that NCU will lose its regional accredidation?

Bo Bo Shan March 20, 2007 at 2:55 a.m.

Guy,

I doubt it. I have been through a few HLCNCA peer reviews in my career and NCU would have to seriously screw it up to lose it. They may only get a 3 year extension at minimum and then comply with quarterly site visits which is about the worst thing I have seen happen before. The biggest issue is Hecht. Until he is out of the picture NCU will still be scrutinized by accreditors. I dont think the issue will be with academics, it will be with governance. And by governance I mean the fact that Hecht's name is in any way associated with the school. In this case, the best thing they could ever do is go public.

Bo Bo Shan March 20, 2007 at 5:34 p.m.

I would say that the risk is not actual, but only perceived. Because of the social stigma placed on distance ed because of an agenda perpetuated by those who feel and have felt the impact of online, people tend to go with the social norm. It does not validate the perceived risk in any way shape or form. The true dividing line is not between online and traditional ground, the true line is between good institutions and bad. However, because online colleges are easily identified people tend to segregate them. Because they perceive a risk at a few online colleges, they assume an actual risk at all online. This has less to do with actual situations, and more to do with how people can be swayed by public opinion, right or wrong. Looking at ratio of traditional ground campuses and that of online/mixed, the chances that a ground campus somewhere is lacking quality is much greater than that of online. However, these ground campuses, regardless of quality, are given a free pass from scrutiny because they piggyback on the quality put forth by a few ground campuses that actually do things right. I am sorry to say it, but schools like ASU have much to improve upon in their academics.

Ultimately, society is slow to accept change and tends to hold on to tradition. It does not matter if that tradition serves little function in modern society. Online is young and like all things new, experiencing growing pains as well as a great amount of resistance from those who have tied their livelihood to traditional education.

The industry will evolve past this and moving forward you will see more traditional colleges that move into online seek guidance from the online arena. It is already happening. Eventually, this perception of online will pass and become a part of this industries history. Look at history, you will see example after example of what was once accepted as the norm, changing to better represent the reality.

The only risk with online is choosing the right school for you as an individual and as you know, this is not limited to just online. The other risk is allowing those who look to oppress online to continue doing so. Online schools and students do not need to shy away from the challenge put forth. In fact, the challenge should be put to the traditional schools. They have failed to offer students at all levels access to education and have failed to become service oriented entities. They should be the ones defending themselves. I believe that eventually they will have to.

older "student" March 21, 2007 at 7:02 a.m.

just a guy and bo bo shan I'd like to thank you for your candid discussion. It has helped me. I am an older woman who would just love to pursue an advanced degree (doctorate) and have been thinking of SCUPS for some time. I was weighing my age, the cost, and that it's a personal accomplishment that maybe I could use to serve society. However, I think after reading your discussion I should move causiously and perhaps pursue maybe a Master's in Social Work at Sacramento State when I retire in 20 months. I wanted to do distance learning as the time and energy saved is amazing when one takes an online program. But at the same time even $15,000 on a doctorate is money that I'd like spent on a degree that is recognized. It is too bad that online education is so prohibitive cost wise. I will find other ways to serve in retirement...maybe run for elected office or serve on volunteer groups. Txs again for the discussion.

MBA Seeker March 24, 2007 at 11:53 p.m.

Just a Guy thanks for your input. I was considering NCU, but instead I'm going to pursue my MBA at the University of Texas' online program. My employer is paying for the degree so cost was not an issue. The HR lady at my employer (she manages these programs) agreed with your assessment concerning online degrees. She said that if she saw University of Texas on a resume she would not question the value if the degree and would not even assume that it was an online degree.

Thanks again

Lawson March 26, 2007 at 5:49 a.m.

Just a Guy...Online Universities are serving a valuable function in society. I Just completed my first 2 classes in the business PhD program at NCU. Befor attending NCU I applied to 6 different traditional PhD programs and I was turned down by all 6. With traditional universities only accepting 3-4 doctoral students per year, online schools may be the only option for some people who wish to get their doctorate degrees.

Bo Bo Shan March 26, 2007 at 11:02 p.m.

Lawson,

You bring up a good point but you are talking about how traditional education believes that higher education is "elite" and not for consumption by the masses. This is just another reason they dislike online. If you have a PhD as does someone who attended a school they "approve" of, they assume it devalues their degree. Just because they believe a person is not worth of learning does not make it so.

Bo Bo Shan March 26, 2007 at 11:27 p.m.

And who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to select those who are "cut out" for it? If they fail, then so be it. Are you saying that they should not be allowed to try? This is a dangerous line of thinking as history has demonstrated.

With regards to NCU using the bachelor degree as the basis of admissions, if you look on their website, you can see that is for the 81 credit hour program. If an individual has a masters level degree or credits, they take between 51-81. Those first 30 credits seem to be equivilant to a master level program.

A different approach does not mean a worse approach.

Just a Guy March 26, 2007 at 11:33 p.m.

To older student and MBA Seeker... Smart choices

Bo Bo Shan March 27, 2007 at 12:09 a.m.

JAG,

What is your true agenda here? You obviously have ulterior motives. While you declare that you hope online is successful, you seem to only hope those colleges you deem worthy are successful. Your statement about NCU, Capella, and Walden saying people should not attend reveals much about your agenda. You are here to promote your idea that traditional college’s online degrees are somehow far superior to that of other online. Yet the only evidence you present has stemmed from concepts like public perception and your view as a hiring professional.

Your last statement "It is not that a person that holds a traditional PhD worries that a PhD from an online school "devalues their degree". But rather, they believe (rightly so) that the online degree is not valuable." is basically contradictory to your point that traditional colleges offer valid online degrees. You make no distinction between which online colleges you simply blanket them into ”no value”. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that online is not a valid or valuable form of education and then in the next breath say it is valuable depending on the college. If you are going to say that then you must concede that if some online programs are valid and some are not, this would extend to ALL online programs, traditional or for-profit. This would mean that some online programs from traditional colleges suck as do some from for profit.

Use deductive logic.

Online degrees are not valid. University of Maryland offers an online degree. University of Maryland's online degree is not valid.

By telling someone not to attend certain online colleges simply because they are not traditional, what is it that you hope to accomplish? Please provide me the positive benefit or contribution to society your approach provides.

Why must you seek the downfall of another group or entity to promote your agenda?

Bo Bo Shan March 27, 2007 at 3:14 a.m.

You are right, many of the online colleges are/were my clients as well as are many ground campuses attempting online. There are specific online colleges, such as UOP, that I have refused to service as they are a “rip-off” to many consumers. But I would not compare them to Walden or NCU. If you look at my posts above, I have promoted many online programs at both traditional and for-profit institutions. I am not blindly and foolishly attempting to promote one segment over another as you are by taking the easy way out and segregating traditional from strictly online colleges. I have attempted to segregate based upon specific program quality, price point, service etc. Each college has its pro's and con's. None are perfect regardless of their desired method of delivery. You sit and say a PhD is about "research, research, research" but you do not seem to have done your due diligence in actually researching the schools you antagonize herein. If you are serving anything you are service to perpetuate ignorance. At first you seemed to be an educated individual but now you seem to speak only from personal bias and ignorance.

What is very different between you and me with regards to agenda is this. I do not seek the “downfall” of those who have demonstrated a repeated inability to reform their ways in their dishonest towards and manipulation of the public. I only hope public pressure forces change. Entities such as UOP and EDMC whose business practices and antics are well documented. In light of the recent NYC investigation of misuse of funding and dishonest lending practices by some 400 schools, such issues are not limited to the online realm. While you on the other hand, seek the downfall of any entity you do not deem worthy in the online arena. You refuse to point the magnifying glass on those you provide so much praise. Your logic is flawed. Your motive is not honorable. If you were here to serve the public interest you would put much more effort into investigating the colleges on both sides without bias.

I do not seek the downfall of all traditional colleges either online or ground. I hope they focus more on servicing the educational consumer and move away from an elitist and fascist form of educational segregation you seem to support. Nothing positive can come when you seek the downfall of another without reason or justification. Your method, path, and goal is self serving and ultimately evil.

Again, outside of a claim to protect the masses from being ripped off which is in no way shape or form backed by your actions, what is your agenda and why do you seek their downfall. I have admitted they were a one time client as are multiple other colleges both online and ground. Therefore I have a vested interest in seeing them succeed as I do with seeing online in general succeed. Stop pretending your goal here is so very altruistic and tell the truth.

Daniel March 27, 2007 at 1:19 p.m.

Secondly, does anyone know of any good part time, distance learning PHD programs in computer science where the student could attend on campus for only briefly every quarter/year?

NCS seems to be the closet for this.

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 3:54 p.m.

Bo Bo,

I give people my honest opinion. I have never said that this is anything other than my opinion. If you do not like my opinion, I'm sorry.

I feel that people need to know that if they spend several years and $20K+ on an online degree from the 4 schools I have listed above, that their degree will not command the same degree of respect that it would if it were from a more traditional university.

AND, If they get their degree ONLINE from a traditional university, NO ONE WILL KNOW that they got their degree online. Thus, the online degree from the traditional university will command the same degree of respect as the ground campus degree from the same institution. You say I use no logic??? This is extremely logical.

Duke University did a study a few years ago comparing their inclass MBA students to their online MBA students by giving them a standardized exam at the end of their respective programs. As it turned out the online students performed SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER.

I am not anti-online.

I just think people can do better than the four schools listed above.

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 3:58 p.m.

Daniel,

You might consider Indiana State University's program in Technology Management at the following link. Its not purely computer science, but it is closely related.

http://www.indstate.edu/consortphd/sched...

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 5:41 p.m.

"Your method, path, and goal is self serving and ultimately evil."

In what way am I being self-serving and evil???

By giving my honest opinion???

I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose.

Again, I think thou doest protest too much.

Just a Guy March 28, 2007 at 12:21 p.m.

So now this is an EEO issue??

PLEASE!!!

All I said was that Capella, Walden, NCU, and University of Pheonix were not well respected schools. Should I add Grand Canyon U. into that catagory? Yes Possibly! But that does not change that fact that I think people can do better than the four schools listed above. For what its worth I have taught for Nova and their program is academically rigorous and very good (again, in my opinion)

Why do you fell its necessary to defame me calling me evil for giving my opinion concerning these schools?

That should be a HUGE warning flag to those who are reading this that what I'm saying is true. And what Bo Bo is saying is false.

Just a Guy March 28, 2007 at 3:48 p.m.

Daniel,

Dakota State is a good buy for your money. Being a State supported, regionally accredited institution with a ground campus the program should command a reasonable amount of respect as well.

With their distance Ed grad tuition running $252.45 per hour as compared to $495 at NCU, $865 per hour at Walden, $415 per hour at Capella (lowest rate for grad), You can easily see why I think the completely online (for profit) schools are a complete ripoff.

Employer Who Is Hiring March 28, 2007 at 4:53 p.m.

I found this chat because I had concerns over NCU being listed on a resume and the speed with which the doctoral courses were being completed.

I was able to find very little concrete information about NCU admissions; it appears that anyone can get in, and if you have the money you can buy your degree as fast as you can send them the check. I am alarmed; this is quantity over quality and Just A Guy is right when he says it doesn't help the on-line only institutions gain respect. A doctorate is supposed to be hard to obtain; it is supposed to represent certain qualifications and understanding of concepts that are usually used in more critical decision making processes that affect the lives of many people.

I am also alarmed because there is evidence that considerable resources are being expended by NCU
to remove and cover up any negative comments or information about NCU programs and experiences; AND I have serious doubts that the positive comments are unbiased and not paid for by public relations funds from NCU or people who could not get a higher degree from another institution for good reason. Someone is making a lot of money at NCU and has a lot to lose. Rather than expend the assets to increase standards and make those standards known and transparent, it is easier (and cheaper) to hire a PR guy and keep collecting money while copying those diplomas. I have never seen such a committment of assets!

Bob at NASA March 28, 2007 at 8:28 p.m.

Wow, what a fury of back and forth. I'm been trying to form a succinct comment for those trying to understand the substance behind the differing perspectives.

My undergraduate degree is from a traditional school, yet my graduate degree and post-graduate certificate were earned at virtual institutions (UoP & Touro University International). I recently entered the DBA program at NCU but have yet to commence with my first class. Clearly all of my on-line education was received at regionally accredited universities – I personally think that is a baseline requirement.

I believe, and this is only my perspective, that adult learners seeking to improve their contributions at work through cross-discipline exposure, applying new concepts to their work and taking a broader perspective to their work world – an accredited, virtual education – will generally meet their needs. If you want to teach as a profession, study the hard sciences, need a practicum/internship, or enjoy the face-to-face exchange with instructors – a bricks-n-motor will probably be more rewarding.

In summary, an accredited on-line degree will likely help at work while a more traditionally-earned degree will likely help get work. Others may differ in opinion, but that’s been the culmination of my nineteen-years of pursuing a continual education.

At NASA, I am fortunate to work with very bright people, formally educated and having earned degrees from a whole assortment of institutions – the key was being a motivated learner – whether in the virtual environment or sitting in a classroom – adult learners must be prepared and willing to drive their own education.

Good luck!

Daniel March 28, 2007 at 9:41 p.m.

Just a guy > money is not really an option for me (work pays up to $10k/yr for college)

Do you know of any other good institutions which offer distance learning doctorates?

Also, is a D.S.c degree equivalent to a PHD?

Bo Bo Shan March 29, 2007 at 2:25 a.m.

JAG and others,

here are some articles regarding this topic. Review and decide for yourself. Nothing herein supports your story JAG.

http://www.homeuniversitydegrees.com/200...

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/to...

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educa...

http://www.bakersguide.com/kb/Will_an_On...

http://learning.monster.com/learning/res...

http://www.fastweb.com/fastweb/resources...

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/department...

Bo Bo Shan March 29, 2007 at 2:47 a.m.

Daniel,

JAG has absolutely no clue about what he is talking about. Before you make a decision, call a few/a bunch of colleges and find out if they fit within your personal criteria. Can the college accommodate your personal schedule, your academic needs, do they have a support system, how do you feel as you interact with their staff and faculty, are they trying to "sell" you a degree or really help you find the right program, do they operate transparently, are they within your price range. Nothing out there supports JAGS claim here. Do not let his ignorance deter your from keeping your options open. There are too many huge corporations out there sending their employees to the institutions JAG claims will never be recognized by the hiring professions at those same corporations. Ask for the list of corporations that they have direct bill or tuition re-imbursement with, they will provide it. Seems like JAG has flawed logic to me. Take your time; ask to speak with instructors, deans, chairs, and any current students willing to talk with you. Base your decisions on that at these colleges, not some guy in here trying to pawn himself off as a legitimate source of information.

just a "evil" guy March 29, 2007 at 12:52 p.m.

At NCU it is possible to complete a "PhD" is as little as 27 months without a masters degree and as little as 17 months if you have a masters degree. Based on the fact they tell you it is possible to complete a course in 1 month.

This in comparison to a minimum of 3 years and more likely 5 years in a traditional program.

NCU and the other schools I have mentioned are a JOKE academically regardless of what "Biased Bo Bo" says.

As for the websites listed above,lets look at them one at a time.

http://www.homeuniversitydegrees.com/200...

This website is talking about online in general. I have never said that online is bad. I said NCU, and the other schools I have talked about are bad.

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/to...

This perpetuates what I have already said.

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educa...

A biased paid advertising site.

http://www.bakersguide.com/kb/Will_an_On...

Perpetuates what I've been saying about schools with a corresponding ground campus.

http://learning.monster.com/learning/res...

see #3 another paid advertisement

http://www.fastweb.com/fastweb/resources...

Talking about online in general. I AM NOT ANTI-ONLINE. the four schools that I've been talking about are poor quality and command less respect compared to state supported programs.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/department...

Talking about online in general. I AM NOT ANTI-ONLINE. the four schools that I've been talking about are poor quality and command less respect compared to state supported programs.

Bo Bo, These websites perpetuate what I've been saying.

Why do you seem to think I am anti-online? Do you actually read what I write?

NCU, Capella, Walden, and UoP are poor quality schools. Does that mean there are no other poor quality schools out there? No. Does that mean that potential students can do better? Yes.

Do I seek the "downfall" of these 4 schools? NO. I just want them to improve their quality and quit graduating people that they shouldn't.

just a "evil" guy March 29, 2007 at 1:34 p.m.

Everyone who is reading this,

Bo Bo, is attempting to perpetuate the idea that I am anti-online.

I am actually PRO-online. I currently teach online for a traditional state supported school and I am very impressed with the dedication and commitment of on-line students.

What I am saying is that 4 schools NCU, WALDEN, CAPELLA, and UoP are poor quality programs. That is ALL I've been saying.

Bo Bo, is trying to perpetuate these schools, and to do so he must discredit me.

Do your research and you will find that what I am saying is true.

Bo Bo is paid by one or more of these schools.

I am paid by nobody. My opinion is unbiased and based in reseach.

Read every post and then look at the websites Bo Bo kindly provided. You'll find that they acually confirm what I've been saying.

Just a "evil" Guy March 29, 2007 at 3:52 p.m.

"you should be promoting only 50% of Nova and 50% of GCU as according to your logic as only 1/2 their programs would be valid."

I am NOT anti-online. I NEVER said online was invalid.

You are a liar saying that I said such things.

I said UoP, Capella, Walden, and NCU provide poor quality education for the student's dollar.

You take what I say and you try to manipulate it to fit your own twisted agenda.

I have taught for Nova in their online program. I speak from first-hand experience that the program is good.

I also have first-hand experience in that I know UoP's program is bad.

I have spoken with other professors who have taught for Capella, NCU, and Walden. They report similar experience to the one that I had at UoP. Thus, I would call their programs bad as well.

As for Grand Canyon U. I freely admit that I know little about that program. If you say their online program is bad, I'll take your word for it.

But I still say that online programs at State supported, regionally accredited schools with a traditional ground campus offer the best educational value for the student's dollar.

But then you try to manipulate that into "JAG says online is invalid"

You are extremely manipulative, but the Jig is up. Everyone who reads all my posts will know thats true.

Just a Guy March 29, 2007 at 8:41 p.m.

Daniel,

It depends. If you want to teach at a tier 1 research institution, then you want to get your doctorate from a traditional ground based program.

If you want to teach at a smaller teaching oriented school, than there is a strong likelihood that you will be able to find a faculty position.

I would recommend trying to get teaching experience at the JC level and submitting articles for publishing to professional publications in your field. This will go along way toward helping you find that first teaching position

Just a "Evil" Guy March 30, 2007 at 11:40 p.m.

As Long as we are talking about websites Bo Bo, Here is one everyone should look at.

http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_...

Get your online degrees from a state supported, regionally accredited school that also has a ground campus. They have academic integrity, they are well respected and employers won't even think to ask if you got your degree online unless you tell them.

Bo Bo, stop telling lies about what I said.

Bo Bo Shan April 4, 2007 at 4:22 a.m.

First, I have seen the Vault site before. I wrote an email to the author citing the same specific questions I have asked herein. This article and the question posed did not get down the core problem which is asking the individuals they interviewed to explain their bias. What you see is a parallel in extreme comparison with the line drawn between online and elite ground campuses "77% of HR professionals or hiring managers believe that an online degree earned at an accredited institution (Duke, Stanford) is more credible than one earned at an Internet only institution (Jones International)." "Of course, an accredited University, such as Yale or Harvard, is probably favored above a degree from an online University right now. People may frown upon online degrees simply because of the stigma that follows. Reputable online Universities ensure that their students earn their degrees and are not simply handed one after paying the initial costs."

Are they seriously comparing Yale and Harvard to online? That is like asking if you prefer a Porsche over a Pinto. What would they say about ASU vs. Yale? There couldn't possibly be any room for a quality product between those two extremes at both online and ground campuses. This makes me question the method of questioning the researcher was using. Anyone who knows how to do research knows that biased questions yield biased results. I find it odd you overlook that fact here. Why? Because this article supports your stance and you do not scrutinize what you blindly agree with. If the majority of people did, politics and religion would be out of business.

Why does no one pose the question to these HR about the 1/2 of UOP’s 300,000 students that attend the ground program? Is it valid? How about Walden’s ground? Valid? How bout mixed populations? How bout those that transferred 90 credits from a respected ground campus into an online and graduated? Why are they not asked to define what it means to be from a “reputable school”. I bet they cannot. In addition, this article mentions “diploma mills”. No one seems to point out the fact that those mills are relegated to the 900+ NATIONALLY ACCREDITED online colleges out there and not the 90 REGIONALLY ACCREDITED online colleges. Again, they are lumped together because it is easy.

cont...

just a guy April 4, 2007 at 8:04 a.m.

Bo Bo,

Here's the deal.

I HAVE NO AGENDA...

I have a problem with 4 particular schools and the way they run their operation.

What part of that don't you understand?

I have personally experienced (and know of others who have experienced) serious problems with the way these 4 schools run their operations.

Thus, I have expressed serious reservations to potential students that they should probably look elsewhere for their online education credentials.

The fact that I recommend state supported schools comes from the fact that I have experienced higher quality students in the state supported programs as well as administrations that seem to have a focus on providing their students with a quality online education and not simply worry about MAKING MONEY.

If you have a problem with this again I am sorry. But you shouldn't have a problem with me and my opinion.

You should have a problem with the fact that the 4 schools I have been discussing are graduating people that don't deserve to graduate.

How do I determine thats that they are graduating students who don't deserve to graduate?

I have been teaching as an adjunct for 9 years both online and on ground campuses. And I know first hand that these four schools are doing as I charge. As long as you pay your tuition you will graduate.

If the administration of these schools will begin to hold their students to a higher degree of academic standards I will change my tune and begin to recommend them.

Until then I cannot in good faith do so. That would not be fair to potential students.

I recommend Nova, because when I taught for them, I failed 3 students (who were not performing) the school administration agreed with my assessment and told these students that they must repeat the class. I am not currently teaching for Nova. I am in no way associated with the school currently. But, my experience with the school showed that the administration cares that the students receive a positive academic experience (Even at the cost of potential tuition dollars)

Bo Bo, my only agenda is that I want potential students to get good value for their time and educational dollar.

just a guy April 4, 2007 at 8:14 a.m.

By-the-way, You didn't explain why the enrollment folks are telling potential students at NCU that is is possible to get a doctorate in 17 months.

A 17 month doctorate!! Yeah, thats a QUALITY EDUCATION!!LOL

jp April 4, 2007 at 2:31 p.m.

Isn't your education what you make of it?

I know many Harvard grads that attended in resident and are quite ignorant Conversely, I know many brilliant online grads that have attended non-traditional schools, NCU being one of them.

jp April 4, 2007 at 4:04 p.m.

WOW! Your statement, "Employers would much rather see a degree from a brick and mortar school" is very broad. Don't most employers just want to see a degree as part of the whole person concept? Education is only one part of the package along with experience, energy, innovation, adaptiveness, etc.

Collectively, you are missing my point, name brand and traditional school seetings only get you so far. The individual, regardless of where the education is from and how presented, is the key to their progression.

"You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink."

Bo Bo Shan April 5, 2007 at 4:55 a.m.

"I have been teaching as an adjunct for 9 years both online and on ground campuses. And I know first hand that these four schools are doing as I charge. As long as you pay your tuition you will graduate."

That is a lie. UOP maybe. Walden, Capella and NCU, that is not correct. I know for a FACT that people can fail those programs.

"By-the-way, You didn't explain why the enrollment folks are telling potential students at NCU that is is possible to get a doctorate in 17 months.

A 17 month doctorate!! Yeah, thats a QUALITY EDUCATION!!LOL"

I had a chance to meet the enrollment staff. More importantly, I had a chance to review articulation agreements and scheduling options. They allow up to 45 credits to transfer into their doctorate programs AS LONG AS THE COURSEWORK IS RELEVANT. This means that some ABD candidates come to NCU and are required to take between 36 and 51 credits (12-17 courses) to complete the degree. Remember that NCU is not a Title IV institution so they are not forced to adhere to min/max course scheduling/reporting per academic year. This means their 12 and 16 week courses are not static. A student has the option to accelerate, double up, or overlap courses. Assume a student does not have a job or life and can dedicate the same focus to education at the doctorate level as a full time bachelor student at a ground campus. Assume they take 2 six/eight week classes at a time. They will finish their core coursework in under two years. The fact is that most of NCU's programs take between 3-5 years to finish. If you call, they will tell you that. More colleges/students would do this if Title IV didnt stop it.

Regardless, is it your intent to say that the longer a program takes the higher the quality? Please prove that. You know how many ABD people I have talked to because the traditional education system has failed them? I'm sure you will say it is the students fault but the sheer numbers prove otherwise.

Daniel April 5, 2007 at noon

JP,

I will give you a for instance. My employer gives us a specific list of schools that we may hire from. UOP, Capella etc... are not recognized as schools that we choose to recognize degrees from. I have to assume that our company is not unique. Therefore, doesn't it make more sense to get an online degree from an institution that everyone will recognize?

Bo Bo Shan April 6, 2007 at 1:38 a.m.

Finally, something JAG and I seem to agree on. Do your research. I will take that a step further and say, do your research in the manner that research should be conducted; Without bias or prejudice. More importantly, equip yourself with the correct questions. Do not be afraid to challenge someone when they make a statement. If they are bold enough to put forth the claim that a college is not worthy of recognition, or that online is a joke, ask them to demonstrate the grounds they base that opinion on. What you will find is that the vast majority of people with that view base their opinion not off any type of research or first hand experience, but instead they base their opinion off of hearsay and conjecture. When challenged, their arguements fail.

Arm your self as an educational consumer. Ask the right questions. Scrutinize ANY college you are considering. Regardless of if it may be online or ground or both.

Rocky April 8, 2007 at 3:36 p.m.

I took one course in the MBA program here and can tell you that I am very dissastisfied.

Little to no support porvided by the instructor.

Ask a series of questions concerning assignments.....3 separate times with no response. Finally gave up and just submitted what I thought the professor was asking for...

Got an "A".... Thats great BUT, there was no additional feedback on my paper.

I get the feeling that this "professor" received a paycheck for accepting my paper via email. Typing the letter "A" on it and then sending it back.

HOW DO I GET THIS JOB??? I guess by getting my doctorate at NCU.

I'm going to enroll in the traditional MBA program at New Mexico State. I think I'll get more out of it.

Jim April 17, 2007 at 4:06 a.m.

Strange enough, I have my masters from Colorado State. It was a great program. I am currently in the doctorate program with NCU. I find the program challenging and in many ways different and better than my experience with CSU. I guess that is to be expected. It took some getting use to at NCU but I find it to be a great program.

phdtogo April 27, 2007 at 4:23 a.m.

Just A Guy.. regarding your assertion that "brick and mortar schools" hold more respect than purely online schools. I agree with your premise as it is a matter of common sense. The Maxwell School of Citizenship and Public Affairs at Syracuse University is one of the top-ranked schools of public policy in the United States. U.S. News consistently ranks Maxwell/Syracuse as the #1 MPA program, even over Kennedy/Harvard. Now, if you are a personnel officer, for example, at an association or think-tank in Washington, D.C., who would you hire? A Master of Social Science (MSSc) grad from Maxwell/Syracuse (a limited residency - four weeks over 2 years) distance learning program or a master's grad from Walden? I would speculate that Syracuse would win the competition.

However, that does not mean that the classes provided by Walden are necessarily void and null. But consider that the reputation of Maxwell has been earned over a period of 80+ years. My professors were first-rate, graduates of Columbia, Chicago, Berkeley, London, MIT, etc. Many had worked in the administrations of several presidents. Dean Michael Wallerstein was the #2 or #3 guy at DoD under Clinton. In my class on international negotiation, with 15 students, Wallerstein addressed the class on problems that he encountered in weapsons treaty negotiations. How can Walden or any online program provide the experience of an assistant secretary of defense?

I hold a B.A. in Journalism/History from the University of Kentucky (1983) a B.S. in Information Systems Management from the University of Maryland University College (1993) and will complete an M.A. in History from Syracuse University this fall. I started in the MSSc program and transferred to the history department after receiving a one-year on campus fellowship.

The first two courses were from the distance learning (not online) MSSc program and my last two courses were independent study from two of my M.A. professors in on-campus classes. Online learning, distance learning, etc... these all lack immediate contact and feedback from professors and students in the classroom. Limited residency programs can fill these void to a point, but there really is not a substitute for human contact. I have the drive and discipline to undertake self-directed study. However, guys like Wallerstein and not coming to my living room!

I'd rather have a Ph.D from Walden than go to my grave without one. There is no shame in an MBA from Phoenix. But let's use common sense. A distance learning degree in comp. sci or library science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaigne is going to win in the race against the online schools. Probably has something to do with the National SuperComputing Center at Illinois that developed Mosaic, the underlying technology for the web browser. You know, insignificant stuff like that.

Quite Interesting! April 28, 2007 at 12:32 p.m.

Gentlemen,
Personally, I find there's nothing wrong w/ NCU or studying on-line. It just 'depends.' I graduated undergrad at an Ivy league school and did post-grad (MBA) at Boston Univ. I selected NCU PhD (business) because of love of learning and career advancement. In my field (IT, govn't sponsored R&D), I find it doesn't matter where you get your terminal degree (as long as the institution is regionally accredited). The pay and advancement opportunities are extremely rewarding. A PhD from NCU will only help, est. $45-85K additional annual pay above salary for the degree. In the end, an employee 'proves themselves' based on job performance. Same with Harvard business grads. The pedigree might get your foot in the door, but 5-7 years later, it matters little where you graduated. However, for those of you who want to teach, it can and often does matter where you earned your degree and post-doc'd. Last, be careful of posting comments denigrating institutions and methods as, first, not everyone has the same goals in life and, second, it give the appearance of an insecure fellow. Best wishes, friends.

Boomer April 30, 2007 at 4:22 a.m.

WFU DEACON,

To say the you "were accepted into the PhD program at NCU" implies that this is somehow difficult.

If you are willing to send them a tuition check you will be accepted into the program.

Having graduated from the University of Oklahoma (BBA 1997)&(MBA 2002), I too was "accepted" into NCU's PhD program. I withdrew shortly thereafter and enrolled in a traditional PhD program (Texas Tech). Having seen both sides of the fence I can tell you that there is no comparison and it is very easy for me to understand why academics show no respect to online doctorates.

As for people who say they were in a traditional PhD program and quit because they thought the "quality of the online program is better", I believe that they were probably asked to leave due to poor academic performance.

A doctoral level education is not supposed to be easy to obtain. It requires disapline and motivation. NCU does not cut it.

For those of you wondering what decision you should make concerning your academic future avoid this school.

Boomer May 7, 2007 at 9:42 p.m.

To all those concerned,

Go to your local brick and morter University. Speak with almost any person that holds a doctorate and teaches at that university. Ask them this simple question..."What is your opinion concerning the quality of online doctorates? "

Ask them how they feel that online can be improved?

Ask them if they feel that it is relevant?

Ask them if they feel you can get a quality education online?

Ask them why they have the feelings that they do?

I have asked these questions and a few more of 292 (so far) Doctorate holders at brick and morter schools. (many who also teach online.) I happen to be writing a white paper on online education and its acceptance in academia.

Here is the concensus of answers (edited for content)

What is your opinion concerning the quality of online doctorates?

At the doctoral level, it is difficult if not impossible to achieve the same level of quality found in a traditional program. At this level of education there is a great deal of interaction between students and faculty that cannot be readily replicated in a virtual environment. A deep and fundamental understanding of a subjects most intimate principles is required to accomplish worthwhile academic research. Much of this understanding is acquired through informal meetings and discussions that simply do not occur in an online environment.

How do you feel that online can be improved?

At the Bachelors and even Masters level (to some degree) education is already occuring at an acceptable and even admirable level. This seems to stem from the online students maturity and higher level of personal drive. At the doctoral level however, It would be very difficult due to the reasons we have already discussed. At some point in the future these technical limitations may be overcome, But at the current level of interactive technology it is very impractical.

Is online education relevant?

At the undergraduate level most definately. At the graduate level it becomes more problematic due to the lack of required interation between faculty/students as well as student to student interaction.

Do you feel that a student can get a quality education online?

Yes, at the undergrad level.

Why do you hold these feelings concerning online education?

A variety of reponses.

Bottom line... A traditional doctoral education is FAR BETTER than a online doctoral education and is MUCH more repected in academia.

and... Like I said before, after experiencing both sides of the fence it is easy for me to understand why this is so.

Bo Bo Shan May 8, 2007 at 2:14 a.m.

"Much of this understanding is acquired through informal meetings and discussions that simply do not occur in an online environment."

Anyone else see something wrong with attempting to pass this off as anything else but one individuals opinion? How exactly are they accounting for the level interaction that occurs at each and every online and ground campus out there? Are they considering flex/net programs that have both online and ground courses? Are these degrees 50% valid?

Perhaps you should include in your "white paper" historical research regarding the opinions of white NFL/NBA, college and high school coaches from the 1920's all the way up through the early 1980's regarding the mental capacities of the black athlete to play the quarterback or linebacker positions or handle the mental aspects of the hoops game as a point guard. What you will find is that regardless of the level of expertise a professional coach had, it was common knowledge that you cannot play a black person at quarterback or linebacker. Why? Because regardless of the fact that there was absolutely no evidence to support that statement, traditional thinking was used as a substitute and it took a small number of forward thinking individuals not so caught up in their own arrogance to look beyond the color line and start a black player at QB or LB. Now what do we see in modern sports? Who was just taken #1 in the draft?

Your inability to look beyond the fact that the people you are interviewing are mostly "traditionalists" regardless of whether or not they are biased towards online, in the same way coaches that were not racist still conformed to the common knowledge that "blacks can't play QB/LB". You fail to see that your opinion against online is biased and when that occurs, it is difficult to approach this topic subjectively. You will always look for the answers you want.

Feel free to continue this line of thinking but at least have the capacity to realize you are currently caught up in the same line of thinking that has suppressed races, creeds, and colors and social advancement for generations. You are not superior regardless of what you want to tell yourself and traditional education is not superior to online, just different. Perhaps a bias exists, but as these myopic relics of traditional education are replaced by the next generation of online friendly tech geeks, the bias will die; Just as it did in sports. If anyone has been paying attention, it has been happening for the last 30 years. It will continue to happen. If you really want to believe that the tech generation of the last 15 years will share the same opinions about the validity of online education that those 50-70 year old traditional administrators, deans, and faculty of education currently promote, you are a fool.

Cont...

Boomer May 8, 2007 at 12:04 p.m.

Bo Bo Shan,

Have you ever been in a traditional doctorate program?

Have you ever been in an online doctoral program?

After reading this entire blog, I would venture that the answer is no.

If you have not, then you are spouting off on something you have no experience with.

I on the other hand have been in both types of programs.

Is it my OPINION that one is better than the other? You bet is. Do I have real world experience to base that opinion on? Yes I do. Does that make me a FOOL for having that opinion? Okay, so be it. I've been called a fool by people better than you!

If you want to work in academia don't get your doctorate online. You won't get hired.

Boomer May 8, 2007 at 12:41 p.m.

There is only one way that online education will ever be accepted at the doctoral level by academia.

If, and only if, graduates of online programs begin to do accepted, published research in peer reviewed journals at an amount equal to traditional doctoral program graduates.

Then, and only then, will online programs be recognized and accepted to the same degree traditional programs are today.

Considering the sheer number of online "doctorates" that have been awarded over the past 10-15 years, one would expect that the academic peer reviewed journals would have papers successfully submitted by these individuals. This is simply not the case.

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule. But, they are few and far between.

Walden Grad. May 9, 2007 at 12:58 a.m.

WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING WARNING

You will not be able to secure a faculty position with an online PhD regardless of the school that confers it regardless of what the NCU cronies tell you.

Before you bother to Attend an online doctorate, speak with the hiring authority at the college/university that you are interested in teaching at. You will find that they are not interested in anyone who has an online doctorate.

Bo Bo Shan May 9, 2007 at 4:23 a.m.

Walden Grad,

This comment, "You will not be able to secure a faculty position with an online PhD regardless of the school that confers it regardless of what the NCU cronies tell you."

Makes me question why you would want to perpetuate the stigma against online when you have dedicated all of your educational efforts to it. (or so your claim) Seems pretty suspect and counter productive for you. In addition, why are you even in the NCU post when you attended Walden? Why aren't you in Walden's post? If you have no experience with NCU, who are you to lay any claim herein? I have worked with both Walden and NCU. They are both very good, but very different programs.

If you really achieved your first and second degree online, I would think you may have at some point entered the educational work force with these degrees and prior to ever engaging your doctorate at Walden, you would have known whether or not online was acceptable, yet you chose to continue on at Walden. This leaves only a few conclusions; Either you are/were not intelligent enough to do your research into the issue prior to starting a doctorate with Walden which if this is the case, means that the problem is not the degree or the college, but the problem is you. If that is not the case then the other option is that you did your research and found out that online graduates are hired to teach at both online and ground colleges across the US, but after you completed the degree just you specifically could not get hired. Again, the problem is not the degree, the problem is you. Or lastly, none of what you claim herein is true and you are simply posing as an online graduate to try and add some type of valid support to your claim that online education is invalid. What is your real purpose here? Do not try and play the "just trying to keep others from making the same mistakes I did". Your whole approach here is suspect.

Just a Guy May 9, 2007 at 11:50 a.m.

OK, I can't help it. I have to post again.

Bo Bo Shan,

Are you seriously trying to say that the online doctorates offered by NCU or Walden are just as good as the traditional doctorates conferred by tier 1,2 & 3 research universities?

Bo Bo Shan May 10, 2007 at 1:06 a.m.

JAG,

Where ya been? At least you put up a good fight.

With regards to your question about tier 1,2,3 research schools, it would depend on the type of research being conducted and the institution in question. Obviously disciplines like medicine, physics, biology, chemistry, etc require lab/research facilities that cannot be translated in the online arena. However, in areas like business and education, I have never seen evidence to convince me that any ground campus has an advantage in conducting research. In a Business PhD, I would rather have access to a specific business environment relative to my research which is exactly what many online students have. They also have many of the same, sometimes better, research tools and databases at their disposal. This also extends to many K-12 professionals looking for a PhD in Education.

I have seen spectacular dissertations and research conducted in online programs in these areas I would put up against any other program out there. These dissertations have and will continue to have positive impacts and contribution to their respective fields and disciplines.

With regards to NCU and Walden, I would say their only suspect areas might be in Psychology and Counseling as I feel there is something to be said about the contribution of practicum and client contact hours and its impact on research. I know NCU’s PhD MFT program requires it, but their other psych programs do not make it mandatory. I think they should if they really want their students to be able to contribute to that discipline.

Joel May 10, 2007 at 8:21 p.m.

PART-I
I am currently pursuing a MBA from Touro University International which is regionally accredited and 100% distance learning. I would like to continue for a Ph.D. so I have been seriouisly looking at a few schools (ie: NCU, Walden, Capella, UofP, Nova, Agrosy, etc.).

In my search I have only found two schools which offer a Ph.D. in business entirely via distance learning. These two schools are Touro University International and Northcentral University. TO ME IT SAYS A LOT ABOUT A SCHOOL IF THE ACCREDITATION AGENCY ENTRUSTS A SCHOOL TO DELIVER A Ph.D. ENTIRELY VIA DISTANCE LEARNING BECAUSE IT ONLY DOES SO FOR TWO SCHOOLS!!! Even the UoP hasn't been granted to award a Ph.D., but a Doctor or Management (D.M.) and requires three one-week summer residencies.

In my search and analysis of NCU I have emailed NCU several times and I have always received a quick response. I can not say the same about TUI.

Holder of the Flame May 11, 2007 at 4:42 p.m.

Just A Guy,
I am active duty military and have been considering doing my MA in Psychology through NCU although I did have concerns about credibility. I've not been taken seriously due to having my BS through Excelsior, so I did look into distance learning offered by brick & mortar institutions for the sake of having a credible name on my diploma when I was done, and yet I did not find any that offered programs that I could actually do. Maybe I missed something, do you have any recommendations?

BoBo Shan,
I have to agree with JAG on one point, outside of employment with the federal governmnet, degrees from purely online schools do seem to lack credibility.
I was extremely disappointed with Excelsior as well. I walked in with and AA in Korean Language from the Defense Language Institue, and somehow the comprised 3/4s or a Psychology degree. It seemed almost too easy to deserve accredidation somehow. I fear a repeat of that experience.

MBA GRAD May 11, 2007 at 6:23 p.m.

I am hoping that without joining the heated debates, I may be able to receive solid opinions regarding traditional schools that offer DBA or PHd programs in business. I just finished my MBA from Devry University which I beleive in my own experience is a great school that not only has online programs but offers classroom environments. Without opinions about the validity of my previous education, I would appreciate anyones suggestions for an online DBA or PHd program in business from a traditional school. Suggestions?

Just a Guy May 11, 2007 at 8:47 p.m.

Also...

While not strictly online, Nova Southesatern has a good program.

http://www.huizenga.nova.edu/FutureStude...

Retired Navy May 12, 2007 at 1:04 a.m.

Last year I completed my MEd from Jones International University (completely online with a virtual campus). I was satisfied with the education and the whole online experience. Additionally, my company has accepted my degree because JIU is regionally accredited. I am now considering going on to an Ed. D program. Two schools have caught my eye; Nova Southeastern University and Argosy University. I am leaning towards NOVA as they offer a blended learning program that I may attended in my local area. Does anyone have experience or opinions on either one of these schools? I have found a fair amount of info and reviews on NOVA, but very little on Argosy. Any input would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

MBA Grad May 12, 2007 at 1:35 a.m.

Just a guy,
I appreciate all your help but it is sad to say that I will not be able to attend those schools as they require 7 years of professional experience. I just started in my field this year. I am only 25 years old and have been in college full time for 7 years. It seems that online schools are my only option. I just wish I knew which online university would be the most beneficial to my career. At some point I would like to be a professor within the world on distance learning. Although I have little professional experience I have excelled in my studies. I graduate with a 3.4 GPA from undergrad and a 3.9 from grad school, but it seems that typically the experience is more important. Any suggestions?

Retired Navy May 12, 2007 at 3:12 p.m.

MBA Grad

When I retired from the military I found that companies where more interested in my experience than my education. I your case being only (25) with Master Degree I would get some experience. I believe that there is no substitute for experience. I am contract trainer for the military many of the people that I train are junior officers right out of school. Most think they know everything, but in reality they don’t know “squat”. Add some experience with your education, and you will be excellent candidate for many jobs in your field.

Retired Navy

Retired Navy May 17, 2007 at 12:35 p.m.

NovaDude,

Excellent info thanks a lot! This weekend I am attending a NOVA informational meeting I will be sure to bring up the “lack of support in the dissertation process”. Your point is well taken about NOVA being profit oriented. However, I have not run across a university that is not profit oriented that fits my situation. Anyway I appreciate your comments, thanks again.

Retired Navy

Bomberman May 22, 2007 at 1:51 p.m.

This has been a fascinating thread. Thanks to everyone for their inputs!

I was considering moving on to NCU to work on a PhD in Businenss Administration or a DBA once I finish my Masters in Aeronautical Science from Embry-Riddle. My goal is to make myself more marketable, perhaps as an executive (in the private sector), once I finish up my committment as a military officer.

After reading this blog, however, I am worried about the apparent bias many employers have against online higher education.

JAG (and anyone else who'd be willing to help out), do you know anything about the University of Houston-Victoria's MBA program? From what I can tell, they're a B&M school with a "95%" (my term) online MBA program that is AACSB certified. Students must travel to TX to attend some sort of weekend symposium at the end of the program.

Thanks very much!

Dan May 25, 2007 at 11:14 a.m.

Here is the PHD program I was accepted to at Nova

http://www.scis.nova.edu/Doctoral/Direct...

Here is the Dsc Program I was accepted to at Dakota St.

http://www.departments.dsu.edu/gradoffic...

Could I get everyones input into which program is better?

Nova is a national 4th tier school, while Dakota St. is a regional 3rd tier. What does this indicate about which school is better?

Thanks everyone
-Dan

Just a Guy May 31, 2007 at 10:16 p.m.

sablebaby,

If you thought Capella was hard, then you darn sure will not make it in a traditional program

jag

Harold Smith June 6, 2007 at 3:14 p.m.

I am thinking about the Education PhD, solely to get that bump in the payscale (I've been teaching in a public school for 21 years). So, I really don't care if the school is highly respected as long as it is truly accredited. If it is accredited the district must recognize the degree and move me to the next pay bracket.

So, my question is: How hard is it? I mean, if the program is so dang grueling that I can't breathe for 3 years...I'm not sure if I want to do it. I just want the pay bump before I retire (since my pension will be the average of my last 3 years salary).

Free free to mail me: hsmithjr@kc.rr.com

Harold

Daniel June 8, 2007 at 11:34 a.m.

Common sense - DO you feel this same way about the Dakota St. and Nova programs which I mentioned in a previous post?

STUNNED! June 21, 2007 at 9:03 p.m.

I won't toot my horn; I don't need to. I will, however, say this. The above epistles violate the purpose of this website - for folks to get a hasty, honest, unbiased opinion about particular online programs. Instead, a few of you have chosen to bastardize this site and turn it into an e-battlefield. All I've really learned above, thanks to about 3 of you in particular, is that some "educated" people, regardless of whether they got their degrees online or traditionally, are overly confident in their opinions, and mean-spirited. You folks have too much time on your hands. If you expended this sort of energy in your degree programs, online or traditional, you would all be graduating with honors and distinction!

Just a Guy July 2, 2007 at 5:37 a.m.

Daniel,

Colorado State also offers a distance education doctorate.

http://www.learn.colostate.edu/degrees/i...

Just trying to help

JAG

Paul July 10, 2007 at 10:22 p.m.

Eric,

You have summed up the major problems with the for profit universities' PhD programs. When I was working on my doctorate at Capella I had the exact same issues. I am now at the Oklahoma State University and have daily one-on-one, face-to-face interaction with my advisor and professors. If the online univerities want to ever achieve any credibility they must hire far more qualified professors (not mentors). And, they must assign no more than 4-5 PhD students to each professor. (Of course this will seriosly cut into their profits so they will never do it)

NCU PhD student July 19, 2007 at 1:18 a.m.

Guys,

I can't afford to quit my day job as Vice President of Information Technology to attend a traditional "brick & mortar" university. Northcentral University is regionally accredited (recognized by the U.S. Department of Education) and their School of Business and Technology Management was recently accredited by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (recognized by the national Council for Higher Education Accreditation, www.chea.org).

NCU's dissertation handbook states:

The Ph.D. dissertation committee consists of at least three NCU Faculty Mentors, one of whom is designated the Chair, and an External Reviewer. The Chair must hold a Ph.D. from a regionally accredited institution of higher education; the degree held must be in the Learner’s academic field. Members also must hold earned doctorates and have expertise in the Learner’s field of study. The External Reviewer must possess an earned doctorate from a regionally accredited institution of higher education or commensurate experience. The External Reviewer must be approved by the School Chair, Research Professor, and/or dissertation committee Chair. In general, the External Reviewer is an accomplished professional in the Learner’s field of study who provides insights and perspectives that complement or enhance the expertise of other committee Members.

Recently, an individual named Diane Stottlemyer did complete her PhD dissertation titled "Development and Analysis of Comprehensive Website Software Test Plan Information Packages" at Northcentral University. Her dissertation committee included two professors with PhDs earned at well respected "brick & mortar" universities--Dr. Al Endres (PhD, Illinois Institute of Technology [IL]) and Dr. Michael Ewald (PhD, Yale University [CT]).

"Online Scams", are you positive this is the same Diane Stottlemyer from Capella University? The mentor named Diane Stottlemyer at Northcentral University lists her PhD as being earned at Northcentral University (confirmed via NCU dissertation database) plus a MSQA from California State University and a BS from Indiana University.

Future Ph.D August 8, 2007 at 10:53 p.m.

Question to all experts here.

I have an MBA from a regionally accredited university that has a b&m and online delivery. I did most of my classes online, and I had very little feedback from the instructors. I enrolled in Walden Ph.D. in Management, completed one class and had a ton of feedback from the professor. It seems like a good school, but I wanted to make sure I am making the right choice. I am not planning to teach, and want to pursue this degree out of general thirst for knowledge. Because of my work and travel schedule, I cannot attend the classes in person. So far, I have only been able to find online Ph.D. programs in the online-only universities. Does anyone know of any b&m schools that have an online option?

Student August 26, 2007 at 8:01 p.m.

I was just looking for information on Northcentral University and came across this site. After looking at Northcentral's faculty list, I was rather surprised to see that huge numbers of their instructors are graduates of schools like Capella University and the University of Phoenix, both of which seem to have very bad reputations. Here's Northcentral's faculty list - http://wm1648elt.ncu.edu/faculty_mentori...

Another problem I noticed is that there are many spelling and grammatical errors on Northcentral's web site.

Others on this board have mentioned that there are some on Northcentral's faculty who may have bought fake degrees from diploma mills. I looked for information on Diane Stottlemyer, who is mentioned above, and found that she did buy fake degrees from a diploma mill called Lacrosse University. She lists those degrees in a book called Debugging ASP. Here's a link - http://safari.oreilly.com/0735711410/pre...

Looking at Northcentral's faculty list, I also found that another one of their instructors lists a Ph.D. from Lacrosse University. His name is Terry Shorey. How to these people get away with their fake degrees? Why are these schools allowed to obtain accreditation? This is all very disturbing.

NCU PhD Student August 31, 2007 at 12:51 a.m.

7th sentence should end with "followed by an on-site review". I let my emotions get the best of me.

Dan September 5, 2007 at 10:34 p.m.

Student, Thanks for the links - I just checked them and Terry Shorey was listed on Northcentral's web site. NCU PhD Student must be a shill for them.

losco September 10, 2007 at 10:05 p.m.

Don't Waste Your Money

Future Ph.D September 11, 2007 at 8 p.m.

NCU has no dissertation requirement???

I.T. Guy September 11, 2007 at 11:22 p.m.

Facts:

1) Northcentral University does require a doctoral dissertation that adheres closely to APA writing guidelines.

2) An oral dissertation defense is a requirement for PhD candidates given that they are presenting new knowledge.

3) An oral defense is optional for DBA candidates given that their research is designed to solve complex corporate problems--DBA dissertations are subject to review and approval by school faculty that are subject matter experts.

4) Dr. Claudia Santin (Ed.D.) is the current President of Northcentral University--she is a former Dean for the Fischler School of Education at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

5) Recently, Northcentral University launched its "Center of Literacy and Communication" under the direction of Dr. Stone Shiflet.

Note: Dr. Shiflet represented Northcentral University at the "9th International F. Scott Fitzgerald Conference" in the U.K. this past July hosted by the University of London, England (http://ies.sas.ac.uk/events/conferences/...).

--other presenters at this U.K. conference included faculty from U.S. schools such as New York University, Princeton University, University of Maryland, Purdue University, Penn State University, George Washington University, etc.

I will continue to present facts, not uneducated opinions, about this relatively new and unknown online school called Northcentral University.

I plan to complete my doctoral studies at Northcentral University because (a) I like their online delivery format and electronic library resources, (b) I'm excited about my specialized course selections focused on computer security and MIS and (c) I'm confident that my structured independent research and technical writing will prepare me for future competitions to "get published" in "double blind" / "peer reviewed" international journals specific to the field of I.T.--the true test and intent of my doctoral studies!

I acknowledge that much work needs to be done to improve the quality and recognition of self-directed online learning and online institutions.

I.T. Guy September 12, 2007 at 8:28 p.m.

I'll investigate via my Department Chair and follow-up later this week "Show Me". Given that I'm doing foundation courses at present, I've never explored this aspect of the Ph.D. journey. I based my decision to attend Northcentral University on (a) regional accreditation, (b) total cost of the program [including travel], (c) "I.T. subject area" course selections and (d) the flexibility of independent online studies. The information disclosed above was drawn from the school's dissertation handbook. Their rationale for not subjecting DBA students to an oral defense was based on the "applied nature" of the DBA dissertation (i.e., research and application of existing knowledge not discovery of new knowledge). To offset the limited recognition of my online school, I intend to approach a well respected member of the Information Systems Audit and Control Association to be my external Dissertation Steering Committee member--ISACA was established in 1967 and now has 65,000 members in 140 countries (a U.S. based success story).

Regards

Hate Commercials September 13, 2007 at 2:05 a.m.

What is this, a commercial for Northcentral? Why not just post their entire schedule of courses. Ooops, I forgot - they don't have classes.

want to do doctorate September 14, 2007 at 6:29 p.m.

Hi, I am planning to do a doctorate in business haven't decided yet between PhD & DBA and was thinking about Northcentral University. While looking for information I came across this thread. I must say it's very interesting. Does anybody know of any B&M state or other traditional universities that have distant/online PhD/DBA programs?

I.T. Guy September 14, 2007 at 10:22 p.m.

Hello "Show Me":

Thank you for educating me on the proper meaning of "cited".

The link and related "landing page" text below is provided by the U.S. Department of Education. My journey to find an acceptable and meaningful online Ph.D. program began at this site. I wish U.S. academic accreditation standards really meant something--nationally and internationally. If Northcentral University was not accredited or lost its accreditation, I would not be interested in their educational services. I have no desire to pursue a tenure-track position at an Ivy League school. I just want to teach night school at a small local college and be actively engaged in professional development (including part-time research and contributions to peer reviewed journals within the I.T. discipline) as I continue my career in industry.

As a Canadian, I have always respected and admired the many significant contributions that my American neighbors have contributed to the world (in many many fields of endeavour). Please insure that your accreditation standards continue to have meaning! Further, I implore you to lobby your Federal government to insure a single universal academic standard is applied to public, private non-profit, private for-profit and publicly traded for-profit institutions of higher learning. This is important for the well-being of all American citizens and foreign students that aspire to have an American education.

http://ope.ed.gov/accreditation/

[The accreditation database is brought to you by the U.S. Department of Education’s Office of Postsecondary Education. Each of the postsecondary educational institutions and programs contained within the database is, or was, accredited by an accrediting agency or state approval agency recognized by the U.S. Secretary of Education as a “reliable authority as to the quality of postsecondary education” within the meaning of the Higher Education Act of 1965, as amended (HEA). The database does not include a number of postsecondary educational institutions and programs that elect not to seek accreditation but nevertheless may provide a quality postsecondary education.

The goal of accreditation is to ensure that education provided by institutions of higher education meets acceptable levels of quality. Accrediting agencies, which are private educational associations of regional or national scope, develop evaluation criteria and conduct peer evaluations to assess whether or not those criteria are met. Institutions and/or programs that request an agency's evaluation and that meet an agency's criteria are then "accredited" by that agency.]

I.T. Guy September 14, 2007 at 11:44 p.m.

Hello "Show Me"

Why is an official U.S. accrediting agency going into an extended online discussion about a Northcentral University PhD dissertation immediately following and adjacent to this mission statement "Launched in July 1999 with a generous grant from the Pew Charitable Trusts, the Academic Quality Improvement Program infuses the principles and benefits of continuous improvement into the culture of colleges and universities by providing an alternative process through which an already-accredited institution can maintain its accreditation from the Higher Learning Commission. With AQIP, an institution demonstrates it meets accreditation standards and expectations through sequences of events that align with those ongoing activities that characterize organizations striving to improve their performance"?

I rest my case and again ask that U.S. educational accreditation processes and standards be reviewed at the societal level if you truly believe my school (Northcentral University) is a hoax!

Show Me September 15, 2007 at 12:52 a.m.

Anyways, we just disagree. I don't like hte open door policy or the sales recruiting. I can say if you haven't started your PhD, check out Capella. Its online and accredited by NSA. I can say that I am in academics which is most of the reason I dislike these schools. I wish they would apply for at least ABET, but NSA for security is one of the best.

I.T. Guy September 16, 2007 at 9:36 p.m.

Hello "Show Me":

I hope to hear from you one last time. I found (2) "regionally accredited" B&M schools with the NSA specialized acreditation you mentioned. Nova Southeastern University (Ph.D. in Info. Sys. -- Info. Sec. Option) and Dakota State University (D.Sc. in Info. Sys. -- Info. Assurance & Computer Security). These (2) schools offer ground based and online doctorates (not-for-profit).

Thanks you for the discussion and I would like to hear your comments on raising the bar for "regional accreditation".

Show Me September 17, 2007 at 12:43 p.m.

Can't argue with you on that. As for accrediation, I think national and regional are both minimal requirements that just allow a school to grant degrees. Schools need special accrediations according to their fields beyond that. I very much dislike for-profits, but Capella's move to NSA accrediation does make me respect them a bit more. Still, acadmics are snobbish as I stated. One of two things will happen with that. Either people will no longer like the NSA accrediation, or it Capella will start to become more respected.

I do know the big two issues with For Profits academia has is the 100% enrollment and the "sales" tactics used to enroll people. Acadmics bases granting Ph.D's to teach in tenure off of a schools competitiveness. If there is 100% acceptance, they think it has not filtered the incoming crowd. But a side argument is that if you can't cut it, you won't make it.

I didn't look too closely at the DSU site, but a D.Sc and a Ph.D are equivalent pending D.Sc has a field project or dissertation. Another school with a D.Sc that has experienced tremendous success and is not traditional (but highly respected) is Robert Morris University (www.rmu.edu). Check that out too as a suggestion. They don't do it online, but structure it in an executive format. I know about them because I have worked with CERT and SEI at CMU, and CMU hires their graduates.

IA Guy September 17, 2007 at 10:21 p.m.

A federal school code has to do with federal loans, to fill out your fafsa, it has nothing to do with academics. Does anyone other then IT Guy do any research before they post? I mean used that keyboard a little

Again September 19, 2007 at 12:55 p.m.

Again, its not about being online Richard. Its about being an online for profit. They are basically selling you a degree. They take anything with a pulse that can qualifies for student aid. Then they try to sell you a dream that is ficticious.

Argh September 19, 2007 at 11:16 p.m.

Again, "Real Life", Its not about "Online", its about a company being publicly traded and selling an education at any costs. And not all schools are for-profit. Most put the money back in the schools. Also, all respected university's do not have an 80% adjunct facutly ratio, accept 100% of students, and advertise heavily.

Counter Argment September 20, 2007 at 12:16 a.m.

I should have ended my comment with "based upon empirical data" not "base upon empirical data".

C A September 20, 2007 at 12:25 a.m.

Dear OnlineDegreeReviews.org:

Please give us a spell-checker / recall tool . . . I'm not the only one making simple mistakes!

Sincerely,

Counter Argument

For-Profits September 20, 2007 at 1:58 p.m.

For-Profits accept 100% of incoming students. Accreditation simply means that they meet the minimal requirements to grant a degree. Accreditation at higher standards, like ABET, are respected. Is NCU ABET in any technology/engineering related degree?

The I.T. Guy arguments may be okay, but how many of the facutly were teaching at those schools prior to obtaining doctorate level degrees? I'm not saying its not possible to teach enture with it, I'm saying there is a difference between "faculty", and "tenure professor". For-profits are usually not well respected at all in academia. Call some university's hiring or email them and and ask them if you have your Ph.D from any for-profit what the chances of you teaching in tenure are, see what they say.

I.T. Guy September 20, 2007 at 9:53 p.m.

Hi "Show Me"

First, I want everyone to know that I have very much enjoyed this online dialogue with "Show Me" -- I applaud you!

Second, if you follow the link below (scoll to the bottom) you will see that Brian Winrow has listed his PhD from Northcentral University as his highest credential on the official Emporia State University faculty web page.

http://www.emporia.edu/grad/faculty.htm

Graduate Studies
Associate Graduate Faculty
Information concerning the faculty is listed alphabetically in the following order: name, highest degree and place earned, rank, year joined faculty.
Regular Graduate Faculty

BRIAN WINROW, Ph.D., Northcentral University, Professor of Business Administration and Education, 2006.

Show Me September 21, 2007 at 12:30 a.m.

I.T. Guy, you have done your homework. I don't deny that these schools hold their place in society, and NCU is one of the better for-profits I have run into. The only thing I want people to know is that these schools will not help you in academia unless you have past experience, and by that point, it won't be in tenure. Tenure is usually for those right ou of a PhD with little to no experience except in research, because research was their life for the 10 years prior. I actually do enjoy NCU because when I inquired the person who I talked to about the Doctorate's stressed real life expereince.

I have been gathering data on For-Profits for a few years in order to write a paper for a highly prestigious academic journal (unnamed for now). I.T. Guy, what you are looking for and you did your homework very well I might add. You have had some persuasive arguments that caused me to change the paper a bit.

I can tell you, I would not go near University of Pheonix. Capella is doing okay in the IT Security Ph.D., and like I said, NCU is probably one of the best in IT.

The only thing I hope NCU does is apply for ABET or NSA accreditation. I believe they would get both and it would make the school much more appealing.

Just A Guy September 21, 2007 at 10:11 p.m.

To Richard Wiltison,

Richard, For what it is worth, I never once said that getting your education in an online environment is necessarily a bad thing. I actually think that in many ways students who chose to pursue their educations online must be highly motivated and therefore end up putting in more effort and getting more out of their education (on the masters and bachelors level). However, when you start talking about the reputation of schools, There is no question that the reputations of Capella, UoP, NCU, and walden fall far short when compared to traditional state supported schools that also happen to offer online programs. If you chose to ignore this, you do so at the peril of wasting your time and money. Unfortunately AMU also falls into this catagory.

As for if I care that you waste your time/money...I really don't.

V/R

JAG

Online School September 24, 2007 at 1:55 a.m.

No, this is an online school serving working adults.

Online Nothing September 24, 2007 at 4:35 p.m.

Adult customers who feel privaleged to be accepted to a Phd program, but little do they realize they were accepted because there is no admissions criteria.

Online Nothing September 25, 2007 at 1:01 a.m.

I highly doubt anyone will ever respect a school that takes anyone and just cares about money. Heck, we should start charging parents to just send their kids to these for profits since thye don't have admissions. Why waste time on a high school diploma when you can get a BS for less work?

Also, Health Care is horrible in this country as well as law firms. Do you really want education to be that way (overpriced, out of reach, and at the hands and knees of jerks?)

Food for Thought on Open Admissions September 25, 2007 at 9:59 p.m.

http://www.aaup.org/AAUP/pubsres/academe...

RE: Article on City College of New York.

Open admissions demonstrated that when people are given opportunities, they often achieve stunning success. But right-wing politicians, think tanks, and newspapers (especially the New York Post and New York Daily News) kept hammering away. Then, in the mid-1990s, George E. Pataki became New York State's governor, Rudolph W. Giuliani became New York City's mayor, and these two men mounted the biggest assault yet. They appointed people to the Board of Trustees who, in the name of "higher standards," began developing plans to restrict senior college admissions.

Admissions September 25, 2007 at 11:22 p.m.

Open enrollment is a joke when combined with profit. Then its about getting people in and getting them to stay in no matter how much they are not learning. I would put a Penn State or Michigan State Grad against any for-profit grad and bet against the for-profit anyday.

Respondants September 26, 2007 at 11:51 a.m.

To Why: There should NEVER be anything like an online doctoral degree. Most of a Ph.D is a dissertation that you need to have close contact with an advisor for. The idea behind a doctoral degree is the fact that someone that is already trained in that area, supervises you to become a doctor. Having open admissions and making money on a student becoming a Ph.D has drastic consequences. Would you trust a person coming from an online school to give you surgery if they only completed online readings and writings? Why would you trust someone who completed an online educational doctorate degree (which is 6 stripes of academic excellence versus an MD which is only 5, so a Ph.D is higher) to be considered a doctor then?

IA Guy September 26, 2007 at 9:51 p.m.

I think all of you academics need to relax about the open enrollment policy. Everyone in the “ real” working world know that the “ Academic Elite” are more political then the current presidential race. The fact is that online education has allowed me to get opportunities that were not available before, because instead of sitting in some schoolhouse all day trying to find the next grant, I have to solve real problems that real workers face everyday. For many moons I have had to hold the hand of “ Academics” who have entered the real working world.

High school is easy, college is easy, and taking the GMAT was the easiest. So stop trumping yourself up, as though you are better then anyone else, because you had to go to class while I was sitting in my home office drinking a beer instead.

Respondants September 27, 2007 at noon

Accreditations by the US govent are basics to be able to issue a degree. Higher accreditations show people there is more value in the degree (ABET for example).

There should NEVER be a Ph.D all online. I say this again because an all online Ph.D is an oxymoron to what a "Doctor" stands for. Again, would you want an MD who earned their degree all online perform surgery on you? If not, a Ph.D is higher than an MD (an MD is a professional doctorate), so you probably don't want a Ph.D working in the field where a Ph.D is necessary to perform a job (like teaching at a college). That is why so many people point out these schools are never accepted to tenure positions.

Hedgehog September 27, 2007 at 6:31 p.m.

Wow. Statistics and betting. What an online environment! As a senior federal exec, I have but a couple of things to say, first, in the words of Twain; “There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics”. We can argue statistics all day; it boils down to what each of us believes. Second, to the individual who made the statement “I would put a Penn State or Michigan State Grad against any for-profit grad and bet against the for-profit anyday.” Be careful where you place your bets, I had to recently relieve a graduate from a prestigious school and I replace them with someone who consequently held the same degree from an online university. The education doesn’t make the person; drive, determination and integrity are traits that are not taught. By the way, lumping all HR people into one category is odoriferous. Stating that HR personnel base hiring upon the basis of school namesake is purely speculative. Everyone here seems to be educated, which means, no matter what path you chose, you spent hard earned monies to try to make a better life for yourself.

Huh? September 28, 2007 at 12:25 a.m.

Respondants [sic] is wrong "had to learn to read and write all over again" at Capella? A real university would never accept anyone who couldn't already "read and right correctly" into a Ph.D. program or, for that matter, any graduate program.

Respondants September 28, 2007 at 2:46 p.m.

Well IA Guy, I would be willing to put my MIT PhD against yours and we will see who gets hired. Also, its not about being an "online" degree. I, in fact, embrace online degrees as a new opportunity for people. I am against open enrollment at a level past a Bachelors. You should have to prove you are ready to take on a Masters or Doctorate. I am also against a school making a profit on education. This means they accept anyone and water down their programs just so people stay in and keep paying. That is a joke. And Level 6 R&D with the Pentagon is what I do. I can assure you, nobody from a school with open enrollment even gets looked at for an interview.

Suggestion (continued) September 28, 2007 at 10:04 p.m.

Note:

(a) all my MBA professors held Ph.D. degrees earned at the schools mentioned above;

(b) Case Western Reserve University's School of Engineering educational programs are consistently ranked among the nation's best. U.S. News and World Report ranks the undergraduate program 39th and the graduate program 45th.

Suggestion September 28, 2007 at 10:49 p.m.

Hello IA Guy,

Your last comment was much more succinct than mine (thank you). I just wanted "MIT Ph.D." to know that Northcentral University provides value and benefits for working professionals. Further, that external Dissertation Committee members can be identified close to home to improve the overall experience of completing an online Ph.D.

Value September 29, 2007 at 3:16 a.m.

Yeah, NC provides "value" - so does McDonalds :)

Shala October 1, 2007 at 5:01 a.m.

If anyone is interested, Walden University is no longer a for-profit institution. It is now wholly owned by Laureate which is a a 501(c)(3)institution. This is great news for the students. I attend Walden University and love it. I feel that I am receiving a quality education.

Where to go October 5, 2007 at 5:56 p.m.

I got accepted to doctor level programs at Phoenix, Northcentral, Capella, and Colorado Tech. I looked at these because they all offer online degrees. I went to ITT for my BS and MBA. Which one of these schools has the best reputations? I am starting to read that people don't like them. Are there any alternatives? They are all competitive to get in the doctor programs I'm sure.

View from the cheap seats October 6, 2007 at 10:46 a.m.

I want to thank everyone for their comments. This is a very interesting discussion line and I have enjoyed your posts. They have helped me make a decision about my continuing education. I have degrees from traditional schools (up through MBA). I have worked for and taught for traditional schools. While there may be a difference between the classifications of for-profits and non-profits, my opinion is that they all are about the money. I also believe that it is the for-profits that bring about change.

I have checked traditional doctoral programs and have not found one that fits into the circumstances of my life. My current wife and my exes would not be pleased if I took a leave from my job (all about the money) to pursue my education goals. So within these and other constraints, an on-line education is the option that seems the best fit for me. I have looked at the big four that have been discussed in your posts and I like what I see at NCU. I hope everyone success with their choices.

Need to learn how to spell first October 8, 2007 at 9:50 p.m.

It's unlikely you'll get anyone from UC Berkeley, regardless of where you bought a degree from, to consider hiring you if you can't even spell the name of the University.

Where to go October 11, 2007 at 2:25 a.m.

Dr. B thanks. I think I read your post on Walden being not profit now, so I am going to maybe go there because everyone has this negative view of the for profits. How should i get published? I hear alot of APA stuff, I never had to do that at ITT. I'm kind of worried i will fall behind now in my classes. Maybe capella would be better since they didn't stress APA as much?

Where to go October 11, 2007 at 12:10 p.m.

Well I don't know if they stress APA, they just never mentioned it as much as other places. I applied at other PHD and Doctor of OTHER programs, but some of them didn't even give me an interview. I found two programs I loved at Pace Univeristy and Robert Morris University, but I wasn't accepted by either. Both of them kind of hinted my ITT MBA wasn't "up to par" when I called and asked my application (since they suggested to take the GRE's and get help with writing and apply again). Neither mandate the GRE's, but both told me it would help. Do you think the programs at this school are reputable Dr. B? I feel like I should do what they reccomended and reapply next year to those since I love the format and they seem like top programs.

Dr. B October 11, 2007 at 3:49 p.m.

Where to Go.... I suggest that you go ahead and revamp your admissions essay. Try to aim for 5-6 pages of solid writing that explains your goals, desires...etc.

You also need to become well versed in APA.... otherwise you'll perish in whatever program you get into.

Dr B. October 11, 2007 at 5:17 p.m.

Did you know all of this before you went there? That should have been a sign after the Assoc degree.... i really hate it that you might have to start all over.

Where to go October 11, 2007 at 6:34 p.m.

I see. Thanks Respondants. I guess I will start calling places and finding out. I am hoping to teach in a ten year position some day. I do not have 10 years of experience either, your right with that. I have about 2 in IT. I thought the ITT MBA would get me more jobs, but it hasn't. Thanks again!

Dr. B October 17, 2007 at 3:02 a.m.

How Come...... research shows that all universities, traditional and non, for-profit and not-for-profit, public and private.......must operate like a business in order to sustain. I've recently submitted several articles for publication on this matter... each addresses HBCUs, TWIs, public, private, for-profit, and not-for-profit. There is a huge "urging" for presidents to act in a entrepreneural manner and for the provost, chief academic officer to handle the academics. They must have a strategic plan. They must expand products and services to meet a fastly changing demographic.

So to answer your question.... these institutions aren't doing anything that any other institution isn't doing. It's just that not-for-profits are trying to do it with grant and research funding.... for-profits are trying to do it through enrollment.

NCU defines itself as a for-profit institution. It does not participate in federal financial aid, nor does it offer scholarships. This is what allows it to maintain the flexibility in its programs. I do not agree with this..... but it works for them and their students.

But like I tell everyone else... don't knock it until you try it. :-)

JAG October 17, 2007 at 5:48 a.m.

Sorry for the Typo's above,

should read

"I agree that online education has its place in our society and serves a valuable funtion in allowing working adults to accomplish their education"

dantan October 18, 2007 at 8:39 a.m.

Dr. B, I think you are spot on! I took my bachelor's from a very established and traditional university, and my master's from a brick and mortar university via distance learning. Both schools are upper-ranked schools in their respective geographies. Now I'm at NCU.

IMHO, may I suggest an alternative way to re-frame the topic of current discussion?

1. I don't think there's going to be any institution (be it govt, biz or religious) that will win the approval of all its members all the time. There will just be occasional mismatches between reality and expectation for all the many various possible reasons and peoples there are out there!

2. I further propose it is difficult to compare the quality of education based on the graduates of a school. There are smart, brilliant people to be found everywhere with various educational histories.

3. Three key constraints will shape your deicison on where to go: 1. TCO (total cost of ownership), 2. practical considerations (example - residency requirements and delivery formats) and 3. how you intend to use your postgrad qualification. Points (1) and (2) are generally straightforward.

Point 3 is quite critical - one should go in with eyes open here. I believe that oOne should get the necessary paper that meets the expectation of the next step. Thus, I agree that traditional, ivy-league schools wil probably be happiest receiving members of similar institutions. The private sector has a different viewpoint and may well see the paper qualification as a complement to one's commercial experience and not forgetting (tongue-in-cheek) - how an individual markets themselves!

For me NCU has been overall an invigorating and rigorous experience for me. It also offers me the value and fits my plan for my "next step". But that's just me - I guess each of us has to find our own way.

All the best to all.

Reality check October 21, 2007 at 5:04 a.m.

After reading all of these posted responses. I can't help but wonder if reading between the lines means instructors from the traditional brick and mortar institutions aren't getting worried about losing students to on line programs and losing students means losing money. Lets face it, Walmart put a lot of small businesses "out of business" and the internet sales have hurt the small businesses. Possibly those brick and mortar defenders are worried that without students, the mortar will begin to fall out of the bricks and their institution will crumble before them. I think the posts that claim education is what you put in to it are correct. I have personally seen professional people (doctors, lawyers, etc.) that were totally illiterate and I have no idea how they managed to graduate from the brick and mortar schools. Folks are resistant to change and on-line programs are the wave of the future. Many resisted the concept of the internet but it is here to stay. Thanks for letting me vent and I wish the best to all of you.

GO NCU October 21, 2007 at 4:12 p.m.

WOW AFTER READING THIS I CAN SEE WHY THE BRICK AND MORTAR SUPPORTERS ARE JEALOUS. THIS MAKES ME WANT TO QUIT THE BRICK AND MORTAR PROGRAM AND ENROLL IN NCU. THIS IS THE WAY OF THE FUTURE.
NCU is known for having more Ph.D. students enrolled in the School of Business and Technology Management than any other university—online or brick-and-mortar. I LIKE THIS PART THE BEST !!!!!

Northcentral University Passes 5,000 Enrollment Mark – Doubling Online Learning Enrollment in the Past 18 months. June 20, 2007 – The increase in enrollment at NCU surpasses by a wide margin the growth trend in online learning and distance education in general. "Student satisfaction is a direct result of our approach to higher education which features monthly course starts, flexible terms, and one-on-one support from faculty who are trained in online teaching as well as credentialed and experienced in their fields.” Series of Positive Developments NCU has enjoyed a series of positive developments in recent months. Already accredited by the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools’ Higher Learning Commission, the University’s School of Business and Technology Management recently gained national accreditation by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP). NCU is the first fully online institution offering degrees from bachelor’s to doctoral to gain this prestigious accreditation. In addition, NCU is the first fully online institution to be granted a chapter of Kappa Delta Pi, the national education honor society. Similarly, Delta Mu Delta, the international honor society in business administration, has chartered an NCU chapter. Both of the honor societies will be formally installed during NCU’s commencement festivities June 14-15, 2007. All of this comes as the Northcentral University staff is settling into the new world headquarters in Prescott Valley, Arizona. The striking 52,000+ square foot building features state-of-the-art design in a panoramic high-prairie setting and is large enough to accommodate continued growth and technological evolution. Lowering the Cost of Higher Education NCU is known for having more Ph.D. students enrolled in the School of Business and Technology Management than any other university—online or brick-and-mortar. NCU is regionally accredited by The Higher Learning Commission of the North Central Association of Colleges and Schools, Chicago, Illinois. NCU’s School of Business and Technology Management was awarded accreditation by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs (ACBSP), the accrediting body for business schools and programs that have a focus on teaching excellence. For more information about all Northcentral University’s degree and certificate programs, visit www.NCU.edu or call toll free 866-776-0331.
Added to Feed: Thursday June 21, 2007 05:16:13 PM

More October 21, 2007 at 6:59 p.m.

More graduates does not make the school good quality. If that were the case, Walmart has the highest quality products and only hires the best employees. In education, more is bad. It means your stadards are set low. Lets take everyone and make sure they all graduate is not a good motto. ACBSP is a joke anyways. Phoenix has had this for years, does this mean Phoenix is good? I think not. Show me a school with AACSB and thats a good school. Not these "ACCEPT ANYONE" Schools. I would never hire anyone from one of these schools. They take anyone, so why should I think they actually did work to get into school?

Great place to buy a degree October 22, 2007 at 1:13 a.m.

Online schools are a great place to buy degrees. Wouldn't it be great that every could buy a high school diploma too. Just think, no one would ever need to go to school then.

More October 22, 2007 at 12:01 p.m.

Look at the morons graduating from our K-12 too as you pointed out. At least that is controlled by the government though, not a company reporting to share holders. Face it, nobody respects any of these schools like UoP and ITT. If they did, you wouldn't find people on sites like this bashing them. Lets go and rate Penn State Online and see what bad reviews you get.

Shut Up October 22, 2007 at 4:30 p.m.

Shut Up Oh My! Your racist. Did you go to ITT and the Phoenix I guess?

Shut Up October 22, 2007 at 7:33 p.m.

Exactly, neither are their students except to manage McDonalds.

Oh My October 22, 2007 at 7:37 p.m.

baseless

Dr. B October 23, 2007 at 4:19 p.m.

Only you can address your own insecurities about distance learning. Most of the comments on this site are baseless..... full of opinions. You will have to do what you think is right for you.

Talk to some schools..... traditional and non..... gather as much information as you can. also... read research presented by the sloan consortium on distance learning.

jobs.aol.com/article/onlinecampus/_a/will-your-degree-have-value/20061006151609990002

jobs.aol.com/article/onlinecampus/_a/is-online-learning-for-you/20061006151609990001

www.sloan-c.org/publications/index.asp

Good luck with your homework! :-)

PUG October 24, 2007 at 2:29 p.m.

Just started DBA program at NCU. Haven't researched and written papers for awhile. I got two do-overs on the first paper because of APA errors in referencing, citations, and paper focus. When I signed up for class I thought it would be a good way to just "pass-time" during my deployment, but based on my mentors comments, I've got some work ahead. Courses are kind of expensive, but I've got GI Bill and want to suck as much out of the Army as they did from me these last 20 years. Good discusson on blog. Thanks for the read.

The future October 24, 2007 at 10:26 p.m.

I am sure you had a rough time getting into the academic area because it is the good old boys club that are resistant to change (such as online programs). Think about it, the brick and mortar are worried about losing their jobs. It is scarey and I feel for them. I wonder if they still live in the olden times themselves and pay their bills at the drug store, don't order online, drive a model A and wash their clothes on a washboard? As we progress into the 21st century, your degree will be more accepted and preferred.

From another worled October 25, 2007 at 7:28 a.m.

Yeah, NCU classes and graduates certainly are from other worleds <smile>. Paying dollars to buy an online degree is certainly the easy way out - just kick back and spend your money.

Dr. B October 25, 2007 at 4:24 p.m.

great point... well taken. i would be interested in knowing the outcomes of your research on distance learning.

Dr. B October 29, 2007 at 11:10 p.m.

I see you posted the same comment here too. So I guess I'll follow suit.

Anyway... I'm not affiliated with NCU but organizations, including colleges and universities are hiring their graduates.

It would be a bad choice to assume that these are all faculty positions...... but the school definitely seems to be getting its name out there. It's just too "new" for me to really follow it at this point in time.... with it being founded in 1996.

Just like there is a growing gap in doctoral faculty in all disciplines.... there will soon be a growing gap in administrators like you who refuse to look at one's academic accomplishments and hire them.

One thing to remember.... no one can live and work forever.

IA Guy October 30, 2007 at 12:11 p.m.

I will go ahead and jump on the bandwagon, and I see that the same people, (I am guilty of it too) copy their post to particular online schools, so their motivations are obvious. However, my comment is this, all of the naysayer’s that bash online learning, who use the for-profit as a defense always seem to argue the same point. All I have been reading over and over and over and over is how all of these Tier 123 schools won’t hire for-profit/online graduates.

I once again make my statement that you people are the dumbest smart people there are (if your I’m a PhD in knowing everything, or I’m dean of the world comments are true) every point and counter point in theses boards revolves around teaching positions. Teaching positions are not the only sources of employment in this country. Online schools are designed for, and marketed to working professionals, people who are out there solving problems everyday. No reasonable person expects to go teach at some big name school with these degrees, they are using them to advance in their current field.

Every college course I have ever taken has been for the pure purpose of getting a piece of paper, everyone knows that typical academics are at least 3-4 years behind the real world. Since us workers bees are out here solving problems, and not giving the same lecture over and over again. In the IT field, which I am in this field, look at the books used by most institutions, the majority of the authors are not academics, they are working professionals, practitioners, and experts in their field, and not by PhD’s.

The only time PhD’s come into play is generally in the advanced engineering fields, and that’s about it. The other 99% of us working people realize that you academics arguing on this board, so far produce relatively no substance, or even have made a coherent argument in any way shape or form.

Dr. B November 1, 2007 at 6:47 p.m.

It would be best to call each institution's alumni association and/or an admissions person and ask to be referred to an alum in the particular field in which you are inquiring about.

There are different areas within psychology that you should specifically ask about.

I have a few contacts from Walden University.

Just to give you a few names: Dr. Molly Barrow ('98). www.drmollybarrow.com/w2/

Google Dr. Cathleen Mann: clinical psychologist. also has delivered expert testimony in over 500 criminal and family cases.

Dr. Robert Fowler: www.decodingpotential.com/home.htm

Dr. Vance Ceasar: www.vancecaesar.com/ go to faq and then click his bio on the right.

Here's an alumni accolade newsletter from the School of Psychology at Walden University. www.waldenu.edu/c/Files/DocsGeneral/acco...

Hope this helps.

Good luck in finding an institution that you're a good fit for.

Don't November 6, 2007 at 2:35 p.m.

Nbody will take you seriously if you get a Phd from one of these schools. You choose all the schools that take anyone and will graduate you as long as you pay. But if all you want is to buy your degree, then your good to go Student PR.

Don't November 9, 2007 at 1:01 p.m.

Check out APA accreditation itself. Call places you desire to work at afterwards and tell them you are thinking of doing X at school Y and ask them if they think that is okay. You'll find out for yourself. If your wanting to stay in acadmics, no chance if you go to an online for-profit unless you are just going to work at another one. Treating patients in private practice, maybe if you start yourself. But even trying to get an internship will be hard. Check out http://www.phinished.org/ and read some forums. All of these people have been through Phds and some from these online schools who can tell you about them.

Who cares? November 10, 2007 at 12:13 a.m.

Why doesn't someone put a cork in Dr. B's advertisements? Who cares about someone giving a presentation?

NCU Proud "California" November 11, 2007 at 2:15 p.m.

NCU is a fine university and fully accredited, please do your research. Online University is for those who do not need to be hand held and can work independently.

Some on this blog have their head in the sand. Online University is the way of the future now everyone is jumping on, USC now has a Masters program that can be taken online.

I have attended the B&M and it is totally time consuming for a working adult that has higher degrees and just wants to pursue a PhD, my time and family means too much.

Why should I sacrifice my time parking and running around campus? When this can be time well spent studying in the comfort of my home, when I travel, I have no down time away from school, because my courses are virtual. When you are traveling to Europe 3 to 4 times a year a B&M does not work for everyone. It is just a matter of preference. I disagree to put NCU in the same category as a degreeMill.

Mystery November 14, 2007 at 6:13 p.m.

Why are so many people against online education? Just embrace it, its the way of the future. Proprietary schools are also here to stay. They make money on education sure, but in order to make money, you have to provide a quality product. If these schools are so bad, they would go out of business. Think about KMart. Prices were high and selection was low. They are gone. This education would be the same way if the selection (or quality) is low because the prices are higher than other colleges. So obviously they provide higher quality.

Don't November 15, 2007 at 2:48 a.m.

Leo, CC isn't a for profit entity, so its actually respected in academics, unlike these online schools that offer psyc. Check out phinished.org or the chronicle forum to see what other people say.

Don't November 17, 2007 at 12:53 a.m.

-ht tp://chronicle.com/forums/index.php?action=search2

-ht tp://www.phinished.org/

At phinished, join since its free, and post your question there. Ask the people who know (all these people are PhD's or in process). Note to gap between the two t's have to be concatenated to use the links.

Don't November 17, 2007 at 4:48 p.m.

The chronicle is the number one respected media in higher education in the world. This site is a simple, anonymous site anyone can post on. On the Chronicle, you will find what people really think that matters.

sarah lynn November 20, 2007 at 12:50 a.m.

Any current students who can give me an idea of how the classes work? I would so appreciate it. I just want to know for sure the ins and outs of northcentral university, before i enroll. THX a million!!

Advanced November 20, 2007 at 2:16 p.m.

Again, accreditation means they are just a real school, but says nothing about the quality of the education. Its like the department of commerce saying Walmart is a real retailer, it doesn't mean they are quality. Advanced accreditation like ABET or AACSB shows quality for accreditation, does NCU have those? Nope.

hey hey November 23, 2007 at 2:56 a.m.

The same can be said of Walden, Capella, and Phoenix....Why gove them your money when thate are better online options available???

Can anyone give me a valid answer to that question???

A cure for the disease November 25, 2007 at 4:51 p.m.

I have brothers and they attend University of Nevada, University of Cincinnati, and my best friend teaches at the brick and mortar institutions of Stanford and Princeton. After reading this blog, I have been comparing my online Ph.D requirments with my brothers who are in Ph.D classes and Masters classes at the B&M schools. My assignments at NCU have been either more difficult, more demanding or at least equivalent with theirs. Now whether NCU's are the most honored degrees, maybe not. But I do not want to live in a different state, travel for three hours one way to school. so I chose to do it online. If no one wants to hire me when I am done, at lease I feel good about myself and I have accomplished more than the person who does nothing- like those that complain about NCU but are too lazy to attend any college. NCU happens to have more PhD learners than any other online or B&M school, so eventually all the top-professional jobs will be held by NCU graduates and who do you think they will hire. (OK it was a thought: LOL)
Good luck to all of you and God Bless.

Hey Sarah November 25, 2007 at 5:18 p.m.

One of the reasons "certain" people bash NCU is because they are a bible based religious affiliated college and this upsets the traditional atheists, agnostics, non-believers, skeptics, and pagans. The Bible and prophets reported this would happen as spiritual warfare progresses and the end times approach. Just ignore the ignorance and do what your heart leads you to do.

teacher03744 November 26, 2007 at 12:39 a.m.

As I read some of the arguements I see both sides. I agree that there are pros and cons like most have said. I am a teacher and I got my bachelor at a very well know undergraduate school as well as my MA. As for my Ph.D, I looking into USF, a B&M school, the tuition was great but with my work schd, also it was prolonged by summer breaks and waitlists.The classes were not able to fit my schd. Especially in the feild of psychology when wanting to build a private practice, there needs to be clinical hrs,practium and or residency. That is one of the reasons I like NCU, my clinical hours are not dictated to me and I use my own states requirements, allowing me to have more freedom if I feel I need more time.This then allows me to be the best psychologist I can be. In other online schools, they are called residencies. All they are doing is reviewing
paper(s) you are not making strides towards any of your goals.
I do agree with someone earlier who said that a couple papers that a person writes does not constitute a degree Ph.D. There is much more to it.
With that being said, Let's all be honest, " How much did any of us learning in undergrad?" It was the first and the second and the third job that allowed us to know what we are doing. The experience that we could then relate back to the degree, not the other way around. Truth be told, there are many people in the B&M schools that pay for there kids to pass or they(the students) cheat so what good does that do when comparing it to an oline school? (Not that people can't cheat while attending an oline school.) This has been a great discussion. I plan to start in April so I will let you know how it is going=)

Student P.R. November 27, 2007 at 12:38 p.m.

Hi Teacher03744,

I am looking forward to enter to UNC Psyc program, but one of my worries was that in some States the program would not be accepted for licensure. Where can I find info. on Florida's board and their confirmation that they do accept the PhD for licensure? How many years will it take you to accomplish your goal?
Teacher03744, I'm glad that you are happy with the program! Hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Greg

Tom November 28, 2007 at 2:48 a.m.

Hi everyone. I am seriously considering attending NCU's DBA program. I have been doing a lot of research, but I couldn't find much about the actual classes. For those of you who took classes there in any field, are the classes 100% papers, or are there tests/quizzes? Basically I'm just looking for a brief overview of how most of the classes are structured. Thanks in advance for any input!

Don't November 29, 2007 at 3:14 p.m.

A DBA is an applied professional degree and is not equivalent to a phD. DBA is not really a dissertation degree, its a professional degree so its more like a field study or something. CTU and others do the same thing to use it as a market tool to recruit people who don't want to write a dissertation. CTU advertises no dissertations. This is why these degrees cannot go to acadmia.

Walter November 30, 2007 at 2:27 a.m.

Now, some MBAs don’t require a thesis and utilize a group project instead!

Honest November 30, 2007 at 3 p.m.

The reason they don't require a defense is because it cost too much. NCU is a for-profit, so bottom line is the dollar. Working for the advertising, Don't is right. They want people to know that if a dcotorate is a dream of yours, you can do it and don't have to defend a dissertation (or in some cases, even write one). They still call it a dissertation though because without it, the degree isn't well respected. They could change it to capstone or field study, but Capella, Phoenix, and ITT have given those names a bad rap.

Wonderings answer December 4, 2007 at 3:27 a.m.

I attend NCU and we are required to defend the dissertation. If you look at their website, go to degree programs, click on classes or class numbers and degree programs you will see the requirement of an oral defense at the end of the dissertation requirements.

Jim December 12, 2007 at 7:41 p.m.

To start, NCU is academically and professionally linked in partnership with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University (before the naysayers balk, ERAU is in the top 5 of engineering programs per USNews rankings). ERAU (where I accomplished my first masters) has the same accreditations, is very well respected, and thus would not risk its reputation by partnering with a university perceived as sub-par.

Second, online programs aren't designed to be like traditional programs. They may look the same in regard to theory and general academics, but the similarities end there because they each seek different markets. Online programs are more for the working professional who doesn't need to learn team skills, group skills, and personal skills. Online programs are designed for the self-motivated professional to apply research (like the real world) to accomplish the class or project (like the real world). Traditional programs are for the student who lacks professional development and needs to learn those skills (a young MBA student for example) or for the research based doctoral candidate who isn't striving for a doctorate for job advancement in the field they are already working in. I will grant however that professional doctorates (medicine, law, psychology) are different in that they require extensive "ground work" (not virtual) and are very focused, thus a pure online environment is probably not the best arena.

Obviously, I am an avid defender of online universities. It is easy right now to attack online schools because of some bad-eggs, but these bad-eggs are not indigenous to the online world. Diploma-mills and sub-par institutions have been a problem for decades, well before any of this online stuff came to fruition. Online universities are the darlings of the industry right now and are thus inspiring fierce resistance from the traditionalists who can't stand the fact that there is now REAL competition for the business of learning. We ARE capitalists, correct? Learning IS a business, correct? Market-share is being taken away from the bricks-and-mortars, and new markets that bricks-and-mortars can't reach are being created. This drives traditionalists crazy.

Woe to the leader or individual who can not accept change, or he will be eaten alive by the swift. Online learning is here to stay, and it is the vehicle of swift change for corporate, science, political, and educational advancement. Each decade we advance faster and faster. How can facilitate that advance without online institutions?

Regards to all,
Jim

Jim December 12, 2007 at 8:02 p.m.

Okay, one more PostScript--

I noticed a couple comments that NCU is a Christian based organization. That is true in name, but you are thinking of the other North Central University in Minnesota. To my knowledge NorthCentral University of Prescott, AZ is not affiliated with any religion. Both are North and Central, but one is one word, the other two words :) Anyone have any follow-up on this one?

Embarrassing December 16, 2007 at 8:47 p.m.

NCU is a fine institution. The courses require a reasonable degree of rigour and sound academic effort. Some of the mentors are excellent and others could be better (as is the case with all institutions). The bottom line is simple though. You need to be able to work independently, stay focused, and often produce more than required at B and M schools. Why? Because you don't get to schmooze professors and waste time regurgitating information with meaningless tests. Rather you need to gather, encode, synthesize, and present information in a coherent and cogent manner. You have to produce. The ad hominem attacks on this post are childish and embarrassing. NCU provides a workable approach to education for busy, working, motivated adults. Not everyone lives near a B and M and not everyone values the traditional university setting. It is quickly becoming outdated in this technological age, which obviously is extremely threatening to some. To all of you considering NCU, it is a great alternative to B and M schools, but you need to be prepared to do the work. It is hardly a diploma mill.

Jim December 18, 2007 at 12:16 a.m.

Well said Embarrasing. There are plenty of B & M school review websites, and I urge anyone to look at them and discover that dissatisfaction amongst students occurs at them all. Online Universities are just new, and therefore highly scrutenized, both by students, employers, and investors. No one ever thought that a school could run for the goal of making profit, at least not in the accepted sense. Up to this point, all schools have been in the business to manufacture learning as "not for profit" organizations. In reality though, any school exists to make money with education as a byproduct of that money, else there would be no capital with which to fuel the vehicle that makes more money.

OIC December 19, 2007 at 5:26 p.m.

Argosy PhD Student,

Argosy Atlanta does not offer a PhD. I will assume is a Doctor of Psychology (PsyD) your talking about and for Business is a DBA.

Questions & Answers December 27, 2007 at 3:26 p.m.

Online education is and should be in the forefront of the educational curve.

Every university that is regionally or nationally accredited is acknowledged as a reputable school and has met the criteria set forth by the accrediting body. The argument of whether your degree will be accepted and by who is silly. If you want to teach at Stanford or Harvard with an online doctorate, I doubt it will meet their requirements. Even with a degree from a state or private institution that is not in the top 15 schools in the country you will not teach their either. Therefore, what is the point? However, many state schools, private colleges, and community colleges will accept online doctorates. As for employers, all industry employers will accept online education. It would be detrimental to them if they did not and actually, it would be illegal.

If you want to discuss personalities in online institutions that is a different story take Don Hecht for example. He has started several schools SCUP’s (Now California Southern), NCU, Balin Institute and he has some behind the scenes interaction with Phnom Penh International University in Cambodia. Cal Southern is working on national accreditation and has never been listed as a diploma mill it has been a California State approved school for years. The Psychology program and Law programs are both accepted for licensure in the state of California. NCU is regionally accredited. As for the Balin Institute and Phnom Penh University, I do not know the history. Owning for profit schools does not make one unscrupulous. Just because you or I did not do first does make the owner of the institutions bad.

Hecht is very difficult to work with. For instance look at the number of Presidents NCU and SCUPS (California Southern) has had in the last several years, that tells you something. Where is President Claudia Santin now? Where are the last three President’s from SCUP’s? Why are they gone? Why aren’t they talking?

Dr. B December 28, 2007 at 6:41 p.m.

This is a post I've made on the Capella page. I, however, have changed the school's name for this posting.

I provide a very valid argument.

As a preface, I hold degrees from both AACSB and ACBSP accredited institutions.

AACSB is not everything!

AACSB has a slightly over 1,000 member membership composed of educational institutions, corporate, and nonprofit organizations representing more than 70 countries. University of Phoenix is one of these member schools. 554 member insitutions of AACSB hold accreditation. Membership does not mean accreditation, however.

Northcentral University's business program is accredited by ACBSP, which also holds 565 memberships with institutions, of which 398 are accredited. Of these member and accredited institutions... it's highly likely that a NCU doctorate backed with publications and teaching experience will get a tenured position. This includes the University of MN-Crookston and Xavier University of Louisiana. These are excellent institutions.

The ACBSP accredits excellent schools. These are not big research universities.... but rather smaller ones that focus on teaching and smaller realms of research. These institutions are serving their communities and are helping to bring about positive social change through good teaching in a positive environment. www.acbsp.org/index.php?mo=st&op=ld&... .

We need to realize that not everyone desires to work for a huge, cold climate, university. Teaching at a smaller universities, business colleges, and liberal arts colleges suit many just fine. The salary is comparable and the quality of like is oftentimes substantially better....

Canada December 31, 2007 at 9:45 a.m.

One more statement. I read in this post that almost all of the mentors at NCU are from other online schools. This is not true at all, in my experience. I did not have mentors who graduated from NCU, Capella, Kaplan or similar schools. If I did I'm sure they would have been qualified though. I did have mentors with PHDs or Post Graduate Diplomas from Yale, UCLA (2), USC, DePaul, NYU, University of Nevada, as well as a few from lesser known schools such as the California School of Professional Psychology, and Claremont Graduate University. Overall, I believe as diverse and talented a faculty as could be found at many B and M schools.

What do you mean Online Schools January 8, 2008 at 6:18 p.m.

I attend a University that is a mixture of Brick and Mortar, Hybrid, and Independent Self-study. My University is not a complete online University. Justin, one must be very careful when speaking on such topics. For instance, the University of Pheonix, AIU Campuses e.g. Dunwoody, all are campus schools that offer online learning, that is seperate from the acutal campus environment.

The Nightly News was specific in refering to Online School, that teaches strickly online.

Walter January 17, 2008 at 2:01 a.m.

Manager,

Excellent points! Degrees are only one component of the individual's overall package. Like you stated, can you get the job done and raise your boss’ annual profits? In a lot of colleges and universities, individuals can go from bachelors to PhDs without any real world experience whatsoever. There's nothing wrong with this scenario, but don't discredit the individual that has experience and a degree that's been validated by the proper authorities (USDOE or/and CHEA) either. Bottom-line, can you perform at the level you were hired to perform at? I’m concerned with your practical knowledge of the subject matter, not your hypothesis!

Walter January 19, 2008 at 3:13 a.m.

How about a graduate from Western Governors University MBA program (fully online) that passed CMBA exam vs. a B&M University that failed CMBA exam!

Overview of CMBA exam:

Philips (Finance ’01/MBA ’03) and Shanley (Business Administration ’98/MBA ’02) were among 304 beta testers representing more than 160 schools who attempted the rigorous exam in May. The exam tested 10 subject areas including organizational behavior, strategy, marketing, operations, macroeconomics, microeconomics, finance, managerial accounting, financial accounting and quantitative methods. Just over half - 162 - passed.

The CMBA program ensures that MBA students are proficient in subject areas consistent with the four core curriculum areas required of all MBA programs in order to be accredited by the Association to Advance Collegiate Schools of Business (AACSB)*.

Western Governors University has over 100 students/graduates that have passed the examination. They use the competency based approach to learning. In other words, you must perform and prove you’re competent based on challenge examinations to graduate not a GPA. Most of the schools that took the CMBA examination were B&M schools. Wake Forest and Webster Universities placed strong second taking this examination, and with a very impressive pass rate. It should be noted that Wake Forest was ranked 30th in terms of quality of undergraduate education. In the 2007 Business Week Undergraduate Business Schools Rankings, the Calloway School of Business and Accountancy was ranked 17th. Webster is ranked as having one of the highest graduate business enrollments in the United States by AACSB International and U.S. News and World Report consistently ranks Webster in the top tier of Midwestern universities in its category. There’s no denying that Wake Forest and Webster Universities are excellent schools, but you can’t deny Western Governors competency based approach isn’t intriguing! Not comparing, just making a point!!!!

Conclusion:

I’m prone to believe it’s based on the individual college and university’s method of instruction, program curriculum, student and faculty. Some B&M colleges are great, and some aren’t so great! Likewise, some online schools are great and some not so great! I guess that’s why businesses have quality assurance and analysis reports to guide their productivity. What works you keep, and doesn’t throw away or revise! Thanks!

CMBA January 24, 2008 at 12:12 a.m.

The CMBA exam is overlooked and for the most part worthless, all you need is an MBA and thats it. The CPA exam is highly preferred over the CMBA.

The Top designations in business are, CPA, CFA, CFP, CIA, EA and CMA.

Most employers don't even care if you have an MBA, if you have a masters degree it is considered sufficient.

CMBA still doesn't matter January 25, 2008 at 8:08 p.m.

Show me an employer that requires and MBA to have a CMBA. Major accounting firms want their accountants to be certified as a CPA,EA, CIA or CMA depending on the type of accounting they do.

Managers with MBAs are desired but the CMBA is not needed. Personally I wouldn't waste my time taking an exam that is just not needed to get a job.

I work with four MBA grads from Penn State, Pitt, Johns Hopkins and Florida State and non of them have their CMBA's, they are not required to acquire the designation and they will not get a pay raise if they do get it..........its worthless.

The designations are not required in the business field but if you should want a designation I would go for the CFA (charter financial analyst). It shows you have a strong background in finance, economics, financial management, statistics, reporting and quantitative skills.

Management positions are looking more for the experience and less for designations.

I can also be honest that I've never come across a resume with CMBA on it, just having your MBA works fine.

kb February 5, 2008 at 4:48 p.m.

I have a question i am looking at attending Walden u for a Ph.D in Pyschology i do not want to be a psychologist but want to teach in academia. My undergraduate is from SCSU and my master's is from USC. I looked at the video it was great i missed that special.

What are my chances if any

Walter February 7, 2008 at 12:37 a.m.

Hi kb,

I forgot to mention, Walden University is also listed among "America Best Colleges 2008" according to the U.S. NEWS report. Hope this helps!

Admissions February 12, 2008 at 12:50 a.m.

www.youtube.com/northcentraluniv

Commander February 15, 2008 at 11:47 a.m.

People, at the end of the day, it's about the whole person concept. I too received my 2-year and 4-year degrees from tradiitional brick and motar schools. But, as a member of the military, I found it challenging to sit through such programs while traveling a lot. As a result, I decided to get my MBA and PhD through distance learning. The school I chose was an online one, and not a brick and motar one. I have had friends, to my chagrin, question this decision. My wife went to school at a small, historically black/college university (HBCU) in Mississippi. That school is so small with 500 students and is so very, very unknown, one might as well go to a distance learning school. But, she knows how to get things done. As a result, she's had no problem getting management jobs in corporate America. She's competed with folks from bigger, more known schools and has beat them out 90% of the time. It comes down to "can a person be trained, and can they get the job done". Plus, there is something out there for everyone, be that it's in corporate America or in Academia. There are thousands of people who received Ph.D.s from traditional brick and motar schools who have been relegated to being adjunct professors for years because big schools don't care about their education. Those schools care about saving money just like a big business. A friend of mine who is a Navy Captain (the same as a Colonel in the Army/Marines/Air Force) got his Ph.D. from Northcentral (an online school)and recently got a huge job a college in Texas. They saw the prestige, leadership, and other qualities that come with being a Military Officer and drooled over him. It's about the whole person concept, People. There will always be, in life, people that get shunned for some reason or another. I am almost certain, that there are situations where a person will not get a job because the college was too big, too popular, and maybe known for turning out pre-Madonnas, whatever. At the end of the day, a college and corporate America (for the most part) only care about what one brings to the table. I bet if I took a Northcentral Ph.D. to a college or corporate job and showed them on paper how I bring value to their university or company, I would be hired or in the running for being hired. In my 20 years of military service, that is one thing I have learned, "What have you done for me lately?" It's not about where you went to school anymore, it's about being good at what you do, being charming, knowing the secret hand-shake, etc. Now, when I retire, I bet some former General who is now president of a prestigious college will be me a job over someone who went to traditional school, especially if he knows me. That's the world we live in folks. Folks are becoming milliionaires from their bedrooms these days, and they didn't even go to college!!! There is no true blueprint to the top anymore. That's why I don't question anyone's vehicle to the top.

Captain February 17, 2008 at 8:10 p.m.

(Thats the same as Captain...in the Air Force...LOL)

"Commander",

As a military officer I pride myself on every product that I create (especially those intended for public consumption). I find that this is true among the vast majority of the other professional officers that I have known throughout my military career.

Based upon the grammatical dibble that you put forth above, I must contend that: 1. You are not a true military officer, and 2. You are an idiot when it comes to determining whether you should attend a particular online school.

After performing due diligence I have decided to persue my PhD online at INDIANA STATE UNIVERSITY. It is a completely online program with far more to offer that anything NCU has.

From the Gunner's Mate February 20, 2008 at 1:11 p.m.

Commander,

-------Begin message--------

He's Air Force

--------End Message---------

AnotherOpinion February 26, 2008 at 4:14 a.m.

I think people misunderstand what a PhD involves... It is the ability to do independent research that matters. I find it ironic and contradictory in nature that traditional programs and proponents of them, consider a PhD to be less valid if it was done online or via distance learning. Its a bit like saying, yes your supposed to do indepdent research, but only under our close supervision. Part of the history of the PhD degree, includes the fact that industry required it to show that a person could do indepdent research. Prior to the formalization of research, there was much in terms of independent labs which were run by people who may not have had formal training.

Once these research labs became a part of corporations, the degree was needed to indicate that a person could do the work. Research the Industrial age and you will find out more. In short, persons like Edison and Einstein all did significant research outside of formal academia. Edison had three months of formal education. Einstein finished his thesis and several research papers (including the Special Theory of Relativity) all while working at a Patent office and away from a formal residency.

Furthermore, the argument that one approach is better than the other must include a review of the person's Dissertation research, as well as publications, patents, and books that the person has developed (if any). One should not immediately discount work done at any institution without an approperiate review. Of course this is only if the institution is accredited.

Lastly, many traditional programs produce thesis work that is not relevant to most jobs. This forces the freshly minted PhD to take on a job outside of their Dissertation research. For example, a PhD in Chemistry, may end up taking a position as a computer programmer. Additionally, many traditional programs produce PhDs who have little to any work experience or military experience (because they entered the programs directly from undergraduate work). Are they sufficiently prepared to hold high levels in industry ? Higher than someone with 15 or 20 years experience ? I certainly do not believe so. Work experience matters significantly.

AnotherOpinion March 7, 2008 at 8:46 p.m.

I agree with "WOW", many schools in the US do not offer part-time PhD study, and some of the online programs in traditional schools can be very expensive. I know of one (without mentioning names) that costs about 60-80K. This is fine if your employer is willing to put up the cost or part of it, or if you have the money. However, any PhD or equivalent, is a research degree. Technically, it is up to the faculty to award you the degree as it is not based on course work. You could end up loosing a lot of money paying 80k for a degree.

I am at NCU for the following reasons: a. cost (I am paying out of pocket), b. accreditation, and c. a chance to do research.

Furthermore, years ago I was at a traditional PhD program; the courses at NCU are more involved. In the traditional program that I am familiar with, there were no APA requirements and 5 of the 8 required classes were essentially filler courses with simple projects to do (independent study, special topics, seminars, etc). In fact, you were lucky to have written more than two or three papers in thier course work !

I Thought March 13, 2008 at 1:42 p.m.

I thought this was board for discussing online education; not a battle between weekend warriors.

USN O-6 (ret) March 14, 2008 at 1:26 a.m.

@Walter

Northcentral is not ranked by US News and World Report... to the contrary it is "unranked."

USN O-6 (ret) March 14, 2008 at 3:38 a.m.

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college...

It's not to say it isn't a good school but I don't think admission counselors should be posting false information. Walter clearly has a conflict of interest and shouldn't be posting on the subject on an unbiased review site.

Joe March 15, 2008 at 12:58 p.m.

Just because someone is a military officer does not mean that they are immune from saying/doing really stupid things!

After doing my research (talking to HR folks from 13 major companies and 16 professors from tradional B&M schools that I personnally respect) I have come to the following conclusions:

1. Online education is not poorly regarded by either HR or academics...The general concensus is that the education afforded by online programs vary widely from program to program, but can be very valuable both from a personal as well as organizational perspective.

2. Certain (accredited) schools have a bad reputation among the two groups listed above...They are...

University of Phoenix
Walden
Capella
Kaplan
ITT
and Northcentral

Having been in the Air Force myself (I'm no longer in but I reached the rank of E-6/TSgt) I was taught that if I was witness to a higher ranking individual doing something stupid it was my obligation to say so! While the Air Force Captain above could have used more tact...I think he was just calling them as he sees them and preventing others from following the commander's bad advice.

AnotherOpinion March 19, 2008 at 3:16 a.m.

Academia is likely the worst employer you can think of. There is plenty of prejudicies there and lots of politics. Probably you are right about where you can teach with a degree. Why is teaching the only reason for getting a PhD though ? What about writing grant proposals, starting a consulting service, publishing books, etc. Also, why is Northcentral's reputation "bad", who says that it is and why ? Is it the "for-profit" status of the school ?

USN O-6 (ret) March 19, 2008 at 8:10 a.m.

I wholly agree that online is cool for positions like grant writing, publishing, consulting as those are based more on your skills than some academic pedigree. I think all of those jobs ask for some kind of work sample first so they know what they are getting before they hire. The prejudice out there against online degrees is falling, it is only a matter of time before they become the norm. There might always be B&M for rich kids to escape from mommy and daddy but online is the future.

Walter March 22, 2008 at 6:59 p.m.

@USN O-6 (ret)!

You're correct! Listed not ranked! My mistake! Thanks!

Reality March 23, 2008 at 12:53 p.m.

MIT PhD guy, you say, "I would be willing to put my MIT PhD against yours and we will see who gets hired. Also, its not about being an "online" degree."

Here's the reality in this day. The guy who gets hired will be the one who is willing to work for the least benefits and the lowest salary. This is the case at even the well known schools like Purdue, Ohio State, and Florida. They are hiring a heck of a lot of "contract" PhD professors.

Richard March 26, 2008 at 8:20 p.m.

After spending 21 years active duty Air Force I retired as an O-4 (Major) Although I have a BS in industrial training and an MBA, The employer that I went to work for was far more interested in the fact that for the last 4&1/2 years I was the Chief of Personnel Training for a major military installation. The fact that I had the educational background was fine, BUT...the experience is what really mattered.

USN O-6 (ret) March 31, 2008 at 11:37 p.m.

I would suggest if you want a PhD to advance your working career then online is perfectly fine. Receiving one from an RA school is more than enough to get you the attention you need, along with your work experience, and will serve you well. If you want to enter acedamia it is a different story. Like you state, those with traditional degrees have a near absolute monopoly on the positions and only seek those of similar ilk. Your publications can greatly increase your chances but if your competition has both you don't have a prayer in competitive positions.

Gee April 21, 2008 at 3:13 p.m.

Where ever you get your degree its what you make from it that matters, as long as the school is accredited, END OF STORY. On line grad. could be the next Bil Gate. ICT is revolutionising ways of delivering education. End of Discusion????

*%& May 2, 2008 at 2:14 a.m.

Gee,

Perhaps you should learn to spell! Just a suggestion.

BTW, reputation of your school means everything in getting that first job. Afterward, it is what you do on the job that matters. After you have been in the workforce for 20+ years nobody cares were you went to school. They care about what you have done for the organization that employs you.

KAY726 May 18, 2008 at 3:06 a.m.

I have my BA in Psychology and MSW in Social Work from traditional public universities. NCU made sense to me because the courses for the PhD in psychology will fulfill the requirements for NY state licensure and I have already spent 8 years of my life sitting in class after class. It sounds like NCU is a good choice if you can work on your own and have some previous degrees at brick and mortar schools. I am a licensed social worker, so the Ph.D in psychology will kind of overlap, but I still always wanted to complete a PH.d without having to sit in 2-3 hour classes several days a week listening to a professor droan on. Also my former boss completed his PSY PH.d at NCU and he recommended it. My email is kay726@aol.com.

Brandy May 19, 2008 at 6:45 p.m.

The concept of "reputation" is irrelevant when it comes to institutions like NCU because the professor does not interact. Suppose the professor is Bill Clinton. So what? He simply does not get involved in any interactive matter. He could have his sibling correct papers for all I know. I had read a review on a woman professor from a student that had uploaded the wrong assignment from another course and still got an A.

George May 23, 2008 at 7:55 p.m.

NCU has a unique way of processing you through the dissertation phase. You have your dissertation committee. You write, they correct, you re-submit, until they exclaim "Wow! This is wonderful!!" That costs you an extra $2000. They call it the dissertation fee. On top of the 1450 you paid for the dissertation course.

And you think it's over.

Not so fast.

NCU actually does not trust the dissertation committee professors. So after their approval, they send it to another committee called the "review committee." Usually they butcher up your paper. Or in other words they tell you that the assessment of their colleagues was dead wrong. These are the coleagues you paid close to $2000. Money down the drain. And of course at the same time they tell the whole world that the dissertation committee members are rather of questionable competence.

Who would ever come up with such a suicidal "advertisement?" Man…

The stupidity of the process is that any committee to justify its presence will invent work for itself. So even if the review committee receives good papers, they will trash them to make themselves look useful.

Basic Intro to Management stuff...

lisa May 24, 2008 at 2:46 p.m.

I am doing research on a summary respone on you are preparing your post-graduation resume and need to list your college contributions and achievements. what would you like to be? I need a summary respone on that. cn anybody help me

Looking for info May 29, 2008 at 5:36 p.m.

I have been researching several institutions in order to get my doctoral degree. NCU is one I am highly considering. I emailed The Higher Learning Commission of NCA to get more information about NCU's accreditation and I got a response today. They state "The most recent action for continued accreditation was on May 28, 2008. The next evaluation for continued accreditation is scheduled for academic year 2010-2011." Does anyone know why they were only granted accreditation for a short period of time. Should this be a concern? Does anyone know where reports can be viewed regarding the commissions recent visit to NCU?

Well... June 14, 2008 at 7:13 p.m.

The 4 year B&M university I work at disagrees. If the degree is accredited, which UOP and NCU are both accredited by the Higher Learning Commission of NCA, then it is worth something. If you say that their degrees are worth nothing then you are saying that all institutions that are accredited by NCA are worth nothing.

Jeff June 17, 2008 at 4:48 a.m.

"Your comment may be classify as trolling."

What the h-e-l-l does that mean? Regardless, it is not in proper grammatical context. NCU is just like UoP, Capella, and Walden in many regards and should be avoided just like the other clones.

NCU Student Now June 17, 2008 at 1:52 p.m.

To Jeff:

I can see how ignorant and rude you are, which is typical behavior of a troll and of a person using trolling tactics. Evading the questions and keep saying that something is so, does not mean it will come true!

Your comments does not have content or materiality in any way, don't have the proper sources to back up your claims. We can go on and on how wrong you are or how wright I am etc...

It will lead to no where. Your entitle to your opinion wright or wrong, People like you won't graduate from NCU because you don't have the capacity to think. Bottom line you are a troll. So keep trolling at the UOP blog that is where you belong.

To Learning teams:

No.

Jeff June 18, 2008 at 5:42 a.m.

Avoid this degree mill. Do your own research and you will see that what I say is true. This "school" is just another UoP clone. It's a substandard institution for people that can't make it at a legitimate school.

Well Well June 19, 2008 at 4:17 a.m.

Jeff is a dumb ass!

BeCool June 24, 2008 at 12:49 a.m.

I would love the opportunity to attend a state supported regionally accredited school to obtain my ph.d. However, the reality is most people can't, not because of grades but because of life's circumstances. I'm a full time working professional and a proud member of the military. I can't just put aside 3-4 years of my life to pursue higher learning, wish I could though. There's been a lot of talk about the "devalue" of an online doctorate in this forum. I see a lot of ph.d's who lack real world of experience, some of who've never held a paying job. To each his own is what I say. I would like to see someone who completed his/her ph.d at a b&m school do what I did: work full time in law enforcement for over 10 years, serve 14 yrs in the military including a tour in the middle east and raise a son and complete two masters degree. But again to each his own, whatever you pick, do it with pride.

teacher03744 June 24, 2008 at 8:39 p.m.

Hey Student from PR, It will be approximately 2.5 years to complete class work and 2 years to complete interns and practicum. I live in florida where it is not excepted, but there are 20 other states which will except the degree as long as your supervising psychologist states that you are able to meet all requirements professional and standards wise. Hope that helps. Talk to you soon.

NCU Student Now June 25, 2008 at 10:40 p.m.

To Gym Rat:

It is always a good idea to contact the University with those type of questions, that way you will get straight answer and more details. But in any event here I go, NCU do provide a substantial discount to Law Enforcement and other Government Agencies, I would say about 40% which is reasonable for government employees with modest pay and limited support from their employer. As long you can provided proof of affiliation you should be able to get this rates.

BeCool June 26, 2008 at 6:32 p.m.

Gym rat, I am heavily considering the DBA in Homeland Security. While its not CJ I think it would be interesting to explore. Another good option is to enroll in the CAGS first and if you like it transfer to the Ph.D program. That's something I'm considering as well.

BeCool June 27, 2008 at 12:05 a.m.

Gym Rat, your assessment does hold merit. I would use CAGS as a "stepping stone" to the ph.d. But some like it because in case you don't the program or the college for that matter at least you got something out of it. Whatever you choose, good luck to you.

Michael July 1, 2008 at 6:36 p.m.

I am glad to see that some people are finally discussing the University. I am considering the Ph.D. program in computer and information security. I have bachelors and two graduate degrees from B&M schools. This is my first venture into on-line education, so any advice regarding this program and/or the school in general (from actual students or alumni) would be greatly appreciated.

BYW, I attended a B&M doctoral program several years ago until the money ran out (even with an assistantship and scholarship, oh well) and family obligations took priority. So, I’m not applying to NCU because I cannot get accepted any place else. We each have our own set of circumstances with which we must deal. As a side note, many of the complaints I have read regarding NCU and on-line programs in general may also be found in traditional B&M universities. There are very few (if any) Holy Grails in the world of academia. Allow me to share one rule of thumb that was explained to me when I was applying to B&M doctoral programs. If you are interested in teaching afterwards (I am not.), expect to find a position at a university one level below the one from which you graduated. So if you earn your Ph.D. from an on-line university, chances are you will not be offered a teaching position at Harvard.

Felix July 5, 2008 at 9:18 p.m.

We have a fraud here and it is "Just a Guy" and the other names he seems to use.

I just looked at other college reviews on this website, and he has the same message on a few:

www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/nort......

and

www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/univ......

and

www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/kenn......

and

www.onlinedegreereviews.org/college/gran......

It starts with:
"As the growth of online education continues I do not understand why anyone would even consider an online university that does not also have traditional on-campus programs."

On the UOP board he is an ex-employee of UOP, on another he claims to have been an executive recruiter for 15 years, and a professor. Same writing pattern, same anti-online university sentiment - same person. The pattern on the other forums is the same thing that occurs on this forum: he complains and other students defend their program, and he argues using different names.

This person apparently has an issue with online degrees.

It doesn't matter what you say to these "characters", they apparently have a hidden agenda, and it is to discredit online colleges that have no brick and mortar campus. It's very sick.

I will post this on the other boards as well.

Just a guy July 6, 2008 at 1:04 a.m.

Hey everybody,

Felix thinks that the webmaster of this forum is going to take away my birthday!!! I'm terrified!! Why did you have to be such a tattle-tale, Felix?? ROFL

Gym Rat July 14, 2008 at 4:25 a.m.

Very bizarre. Why would someone waste their personal time to do something so weird? What's the agenda/motive behind such strange behavior?

Just A Guy July 21, 2008 at 8:40 p.m.

I'm still around, and no matter what Felix says I'm not anti-online.

However, Capella, Walden, NCU and UoP have a lot to be desired.

Buddy July 31, 2008 at 6:56 p.m.

By the way, JAG, I agree with you completely about the traditional brick and mortar schools, i.e, their online programs vs those offered by some of the non-trad schools that you have mentioned. Employers definitely look at both the program and the school from which it emanates

Buddy August 1, 2008 at 3:42 p.m.

GR Along with academia, include medicine and all of the sciences as well in terms of a peer review and acceptance of one's academic acquisitions

Just A Guy August 2, 2008 at 11:48 a.m.

Must post negative comments....

post
post
post
post

I never went to this school but who cares....

post
post
post

NDS August 7, 2008 at 11:02 p.m.

North Dakota State is the only choice. Don't bother with the other ones.

At Lookie Lou August 10, 2008 at 2:03 a.m.

Would you care to elaborate as per why to avoid for profits?

Lookie Lou August 10, 2008 at 4:16 a.m.

At Lookie Lou,

The for profits are WAY MORE EXPENSIVE than the non profits and the quality of education you get isn't as good.

NCU Grads August 11, 2008 at 8:41 p.m.

PACE is not a for-profit, how is their reputation?

I also looked at Carnegie Mellon University, Robert Morris University, and Duquense University (I live in Pittsburgh so these are possible). They aren't online degrees, but they seem to have some very hard requirements to get in. I went to the school and talked to some admissions people, but they didn't seem as interested in me as NCU did. After reading this blog, is it because NCU wants you to go there for money and these schools don't care? I'm confused. NCU seems like it has a rock solid reputation and a great curriculum. They outlined some harsh writing guidelines the other schools did not and also how much help is available. The other schools did not do this. Would NCU be a better school then because it has better graduates?

At Lookie Lou August 16, 2008 at 7:35 a.m.

As I suspected you did not elaborate, so you don't have any experience and you don't know what you are talking about. Have you looked how expensive Nova Southeastern University is? And supposedly they are non-for profit.

Crock October 3, 2008 at 8:57 p.m.

Hopeful,

Kiss my bootie hole! I'll post wherever I please!

caveat emptor October 28, 2008 at 2:19 p.m.

The individual seeking admittance to a top tier state school or an Ivy League school is vastly different from an individual seeking admittance to an open enrollment program, of which many of the on-line for-profit programs are. An open enrollment program that does not market itself predicated upon academic rigor, but ease of access, rapidity of completion, and diversification of degrees provide the appearance of what I lovingly refer to as “night school U.”

Academically mediocre students who complete an undergraduate or graduate degree at a 3rd rate school with a 2.0 grade point average (GPA) might find these for-profit schools a good fit. However, as you’ve read, many fail to complete these programs for a myriad of reasons, some legitimate, others simply got in over their academic heads and believed the next level of academics was going to be as easy as their last, due to it’s lack of academic rigor.

The majority of comments regarding Argosy, Capella, Northcentral, University of Phoenix, and Walden are negative; the corollary for these academic institutions is they are for-profit. Many adult learners seeking advanced education know well their academic fundamentals are weak, and they will not perform well on the GMAT, MAT, or GRE, not to mention, the academic quality and rigor of their previous “night school U” experiences has not prepared them for a rigorous mainstream academic program, so they apply to 3rd, tier educational institutions and still fail.

Since not all of us are going to attend outstanding state schools, or Ivy League institutions, these “other” programs have their place. However, as many of you have pointed out, what the marketplace believes the value of your degree is worth is very important. The University of Phoenix (UoP) for example has a terrible reputation. Yes, you’ll find some who had a great experience there; however, check the blogs, and sites such as this, UoP appears to be a “team based” diploma mill. Check the UoP reputation in the market place, like it or not, it’s poor. The reason employers are skeptical of these programs is because many of those completing them are not prepared academically for the next step, i.e., promotion, or for initial hiring at a new company.

Where does that leave us adult learners who can’t quit our day jobs to attend MIT? First, understand what it is you desire from the degree you’re pursuing, probably professional advancement. Second, understand how the marketplace views the degree’s credibility, if it’s poor, and be realistic, then go somewhere else. Third, please ensure the institution is Regionally Accredited, despite what others say, (and they’re mistaken) this is the gold standard in general post-secondary education accreditation

caveat emptor October 29, 2008 at 7:55 p.m.

Hey AZ Musings:

Thanks for the post, good insight, good comments. I don't think the debate is B&M verses on-line. I agree with you, on-line is the future, the Ivy League will be offering degrees on-line in the near future.

I believe the debate is for profit verses not for profit. It appears the for profit folks are simply in it for the money with little regard for academic excellence. I applied to NCU but did not pursue for a myriad of reasons (not all bad). A solid state school might be the preferable path.

caveat emptor October 30, 2008 at 11:05 a.m.

Hi Ice Man:

I'm not sure taking what you can get is a objective option if the option is both very expensive and lacks academic and marketplace credibility. The cost of a graduate or doctorate degree from one of these for profit schools can range from $50,000 to $100,000, creating a difficult if not impossible return on investment scenario. If the marketplace does not view these programs with favor, and no promotion or new job earning increased salary follows degree completion, what do you have? What you have is Dr. in front of your name and .50 cents for a cup of coffee (before beginning to pay off the staggering student loans you've taken). Maybe you can consult, maybe acquire a state/county school district administration job... I think folks pursuing these types of degrees need to examine why they're at a for profit school to begin with and what they hope to achieve at degree completion.

caveat emptor October 30, 2008 at 1:21 p.m.

Greetings Think About it:

Availability, cost and reputation appear to be the loci of our discussion. What we haven't really discussed is how, in particular, is a doctorate degree going to help you, what is the pay off? For example, AZ Musings does not desire to teach, maybe consult? It's a tough sell to spend $50,000 to $100,000 and up to seven years of your life for only cognitive interest? There's got to be more balanced hobbies out there? I agree, in most cases you don't require a doctorate to find a mainstream job. In fact, list a doctorate on a mainstream resume and you'll scare off the reader/hiring manager.

AZ Musings November 2, 2008 at 1:54 p.m.

Hi All, I agree with the recent postings... You must understand why & what a Doctorate (PhD or DBA in my case) will do for you, cost, time involved and reputation of the program. In my particular case:
1) I have a Masters already and have 26 months left on the GI Bill, & work for a company that will pay full education benefits (a real rarity amongst companies I know). A side note here, some MS (especially MBA) programs are just as expensive as some of these PhD programs we are looking at, so dependent upon which program you are looking at, cost is negligible) SO… I have cost covered.
2) I prefer classroom training (mostly the dynamics this involves and interaction with other students). I can acquire a BS in Computer Science (but since I don't like math or programming.... that is out). An MBA is out since as stated previously, they are not MBA accredited programs, no other Masters programs of interest here (and I have no desire to drive the 160 mile roundtrip to AZ South). SO… that leaves on-line training.
3) If I go on-line the options are numerous (in relation to the Brick & Mortar (B&M) options I have here). But, since I do not like writing, I am stuck. When you go the on-line route for education you must write. If I must write I may as well make the jump to a doctorate (yes I realize the level and quality is (should be) higher). SO… l am looking at the PhD.
4) Is another degree of value to me? A BS seems to be going backwards (especially since most IT related jobs seem to stress certifications and not degrees). Another MS could be of value, but must be chosen correctly. A PhD (or DBA) would most likely hurt my job potential here in South Eastern AZ. So, I am torn between the MS or PhD. Both require work to acquire and lots of writing (on-line any way). I lean towards the PhD strictly for two reasons: a) If I ever want to become a consultant it may help (no research positions here like there are in the D.C. metro area) to entice companies to gain my services, and b) If I ever wanted to teach a PhD would be of value (yes I can do this with my MS, but a PhD opens more on-line options). SO… leaning towards a PhD.

caveat emptor November 3, 2008 at 3:06 p.m.

Hi AZ Musings:

It appears you got it covered, with tuition paid for through employer or GI Bill, the issues remain threefold: (a) goals at degree completion, (b) time, and (c) academic reputation. It appears you might want to consult, that's great; however, if you've not sure, it's still a three, five or up to a seven year journey (time) to complete a doctorate degree, and if you don't like to write, then a doctorate degree is going to create great misery in your life due to writing is a large component of a terminal degree.

A graduate degree might cost as much from a for-profit school as a doctorate (which isn't an issue for you as tuition is covered); however, the course work will be a little less than that of a doctorate degree, and the thesis if required at all is typically a bit shorter as well (although not always depending upon the reseach topic).

I believe ignoring academic reputation is a mistake, and I'm not insinuating you're doing this. If cost is not an issue, take a look at Nova Southeastern University or Fielding Graduate Institute. Both of these schools enjoy a solid reputation, offer on-line access, and yes, are relatively expensive.

Finally, not that's it's any of my business. I didn't read a clear reason for your pursuit of another graduate degree. Professional advancement, cognitive interest, bragging rights, or burn up the GI Bill. Heck, I guess you don't have to have a reason, just the drive to compete the degree. Best of luck to you...

Truth November 22, 2008 at 9:41 p.m.

The world is changing and online education is and will be the way of the future. I like riding horses; however automobiles get me there quicker and safer. I like to jog; however running get me there quicker and with stronger results. I drink water for energy; however when playing sports-----I drink sport drinks for a little bit more---energy. Bottom line brick and mortar are great; however distance learning (online) is what the military use a lot, business educate their employees with, and adult learners that must continue their adult responsibilities ------will attend. So if you go to B&M ----great; however if your focus on the future and enhancing pass the 1920---1990----go Army and go to school online.

caveat emptor November 24, 2008 at 2:02 p.m.

Hey Joe:

You've hit the nail on the head. I would suggust no one needs (key word here: needs) a doctorate degree to move up in the civilian world. On the contrary, I did not pursue my doctorate to enhance my "full-time" gig. I knew full well a doctorate would do little for me in my day job.

I pursued the degree to consult, teach and fall back on if hards times hit, and the degree has allowed me to do this. I do not list my doctorate on my resume because it appears to be overkill. I did for sometime and scared many potential employers away. I have since constructed a CV and list it there, but maintain my resume for non-academic positions.

Your educational foundation is excellent, Citadel is a great school. Coupled with an MBA from a AACSB school, I can't believe you need a doctorate for career progression. This is exactly the mistake many make, that "another" degree will propel them up the ladder, and this usually isn't the case. If you're already in consulting, government, or in education, then it might be the case.

Folks spend $50,000 to $100,000 on these for-profit doctorate degrees to learn they are not academically prepared;or, when they complete them, find the degree does little for them. I don't fault anyone for pursuing a doctorate degree; however, it's a lot of work, ties up to seven years of your life, is usually very expensive, and might not produce any ROI. Not to mention attending a questionable academic institution.

Finally, in my opinion, without a clear goal, pursuing a degree at this level at almost any institution is a mistake.

Very Simple November 24, 2008 at 11:07 p.m.

If you need an AACSB degree, pursue it where is given. This is a free market and your entitle to go to school where you can afford and want. If you want to think that you need AACSB for work, think again most employer do not care, this is a realms that is created by individuals, that want to show that are superior than others. AACSB only means that the school is good for research not that students that comes out are genius or better than other individuals, is other that the school focus in excellence in researching. And if you want to get a doctorate for whatever reasons at an AACSB university bear in mind that is a full time endeavor and you won't be able to do it part time. Northcentral University is accredited by the Association of Collegiate Business Schools and Programs – ACBSP, the premier accrediting association for business schools and programs with a focus on teaching excellence. ACBSP is recognized by the Council on Higher Education Accreditation(CHEA),also is Regional Accredited by The North Central Association of Colleges and Schools. HLC is recognized by the US Department of Education and the Council on Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA) and will cost you about $30K. Simple point go where you like as long is accredited and you can afford. Live and let Live.

Live and let live November 25, 2008 at 5:41 a.m.

So, now you go with the name recognition line. I don't think that AACSB is superior than ACBSP but they are different in the mission and approach, but if that line or rationale makes you superior(which is what you are implying with this statement) by all means, be superior. You are only talking about one little place(your place of employment) in the world, your are missing the big picture. It seems that your company is a bit selective, just like the Harvard and Princeton individuals. The workplace is founded, in the elements of who you know and not what you know that counts. Considering that the fundamentals of our economy are not sound, where would you go if you lose this glorious job of yours? Not like I care, but is likely that high paying jobs (like yours) will be flushed out(and it will happen) and or if you don't take a substantial pay cut to keeps this job, the market(new economy) will bring cheaper labor(new executives). Never, never, never lose that job of yours, because in the future, perhaps you may work for someone that is inferior as you called them.

Ice Man November 25, 2008 at 5:41 p.m.

Okay, good points everyone on both sides. Yes I'm an advocate of online learning. Basically, if you want a pursue a AACSB degree from a recognized big name school so be it. Those who support NCU, Walden, Capella, etc. like myself were just doing our own thing here and not hurting anyone. Personally, I'm not trying to compare my credentials to a person from MIT or Harvard. Again, big misconception that online learners somehow feel there degrees are the equivalent to that of an ivy league education. These are learners who are simply trying to better themselves. My perspective, "you do your thing" and "I'll do mine" simple.

Ice Man November 25, 2008 at 6:40 p.m.

Joe, correct me if I'm wrong but I think NCU (I'm not a student at NCU by the way) is a candidate for IACBE accreditation as well. Also, I thought that ACBSP is higher than IACBE but I could be wrong. Also, you provide a good analysis.

Live and Let Live November 25, 2008 at 7:45 p.m.

Joe: No response to my economic analysis? You have commented interest of doing a doctorate, but according to your comments you won't pursue it because the places you look at are not AACSB or meets your glorious criteria, the true of the matter is that you never will exercise this endeavor, 1) because you are too close minded, 2) you won't be able to do it(only 1% of the population can do it regardless the school they go to), 3) AACSB will required you to leave your job, and you know you need this high paying job, so you won't leave this job of yours, and 4) You are resistant to change(we are not in the 20th century anymore, move on). The folks from Princeton and Harvard will look down at your Citadel degree(your are not above all), a chain reaction. Simple, go where you like and can afford and let others live.

To let the buyer beware(caveat emptor): CHEA is not an accrediting body and no one suggested that, acceptance by the CHEA means an approval, same as the U.S. Department of Education. Some people here indirectly are suggesting they are genius and superior, buy ranking themselves against others and that is wrong, in any event there is no substitution to common sense(Superior or genius individuals destroyed the U.S. Economy). Have that one in mind, it was free.

Joe November 25, 2008 at 9:29 p.m.

You should stop parsing my words applying it to people and apply it to employability. I am not saying any of these people are inferior human beings... I am saying their CVs are inferior for employment compared to the rest. This is not just my opinion... it is the reality and I want people to recognize that. I am happy to give my industry experience so people have a view as to what they can expect. I want to help them make the best choices to increase their employability. Many of the people on this blog are fellow military/vets and I care most about their futures.

Finally December 11, 2008 at 10:55 p.m.

The administrator is watching over the blog since I saw most of the comments were gone.

caveat emptor December 23, 2008 at 4:25 p.m.

Hey Prospective Student:

Please view my post of October 28, 2008 at 2:19 p.m on this page that contributed to this line of inquiry. There are two camps in education (let's ignore accredidation for the time being), the for-profits to include: Argosy, Capella, NCU, Univeristy of Maryland University College, UoP, and Walden and the not-for-profits.

Of the not-for-profits: Nova Southeastern, Fielding Graduate University, and Colorado State offer credible online terminal degree programs.

The return-on-investment with a for-profit school is nearly impossible to achieve due to the cost, between $50,000 and $100,000. Although I wouldn't deter anyone attempting to better themselves by pursuing advanced education, the for-profits are a tough road to travel. How long will it take to recoup the tuition, fees, text books, and site visits?

Online PhD December 25, 2008 at 9:14 a.m.

I posses an online PhD from NCU. It is fine for what I want which was to get a raise which comes automatic in my organization. I would not call my degree a true PhD. It is a professions based degree which applies to my job. If you want to do some serious research you are going to have to go to a research school which is not offered online.

Exhausted December 26, 2008 at 10:21 a.m.

By the way, a friend of mine got his Ph.D. from NCU and is now teaching at a major university in Texas. You never know. Don't judge.

caveat emptor December 29, 2008 at 2:21 p.m.

Exhausted:

I don't believe anyone is debating the efficacy of on-line learning. The debate is two-fold: academically unprepared individuals who pursue a terminal degree at a for-profit university, fail, and then complain about it in this forum; and, the cost and reputation of these for-profit schools.

You're correct, bright individuals seldom need education beyond an undergraduate level; the truly gifted don't even need this level of education. Advanced education simply offers additional opportunities for those degree holding folks.

I always said I would never dissuade anyone from pursuing advanced education. With this message I would add two things: have a clear understanding of the goal of the degree; and, calculate a return-on-investment for the degree.

It Figures... December 30, 2008 at 10:15 p.m.

It figures since you work in the worst education system in the nation.

Caveat Emptor December 31, 2008 at 9:36 p.m.

Hold on:

My message is not one of anti-online learning. My post above dated October 28, 2008 at 2:19 p.m. initiated this line of inquiry. As you skim the comments on this page above this date, you'll find many negative comments about NCU. You and I both realize there are many NCU grads that are pleased with their NCU experience and display their NCU diploma with some degree of pride.

Corollary to these negative comments are the for-profit schools, particularly at the doctorate level, and student failure. When folks venture onto sites such as this, they're looking for direction. We both know these for-profit programs at the graduate and doctorate levels are very expensive, $50,000 to a $100,000.

Here's the beef, mediocre students work their way through the course work for a terminal (doctorate) degree. When then faced with the lonely path of dissertation, they fail. Then they bad mouth the university in question. Why are they angry? With an "open" enrollment philosophy, these for-profits take anyone with a bit of previous university learning, no qualifying exam, pay the admission fee and off we go. After the required courses are taken at great expense, they can't complete the dissertation and they have very little to show for their efforts. Yes, they're angry, but they shouldn't have been in the program in the first place, increased admissions rigor including a qualifying exam would have saved these folks a lot of money and anguish, because they wouldn't have been accepted. This is not a debate between brick and mortar and virtual programs, it's a debate between for-profit and not-for-profit programs.

Folks considering spending $50k to $100k for a for-profit education need to seriously consider there own academic ability, understand the total cost involved, understand their goals at degree completion (which can be up to seven years for completion) and understand the return-on-investment for the degree. We haven't even begun to discuss academic reputation for these very expensive for-profit degree programs regardless of regional accreditation.

Incidentally, I earned an Ed.D from a hybrid program. I worked my tail off and the degree is certainly paying high dividends for me. I'm even considering a second terminal degree. I'm not opposed to on-line learning...

Hold On December 31, 2008 at 11:40 p.m.

Again, awesome points and I understand it a little better now. It seems that we're all adults here. As long as a potential student understands the risks and rewards, he or she has no one to blame but themselves. Personally, I wouldn't get all mad about this issue. There's a lot of information about online education (pros and cons) out there you don't need to take it upon yourself to educate the industry. Just my 2 cents.

Caveat Emptor January 1, 2009 at 6:38 p.m.

Hold On:

Hold on, hold on! The main focus of this site is to educate and share perceptions of the university in question. If you skim the negative comments above, you'll find individuals do desire this line of rhetoric.

Adults or not, many folks (see above) get into these for-profit schools, spend a bunch on tuition, fees and site visits and don't complete the program in question. I anticipate my two cents will help individuals skimming this site make informed decisions.

MoreOpinions January 2, 2009 at 4:26 a.m.

Regarding this issue of IVY League versus non - IVY League, ACBSP vs AACSB, etc, I think that is all crap. Why not judge and hire people based on work experience and what they can deliver to the bottom line ? There are plenty of top-flight graduates who have run corporations right into the ground, or are we already forgetting the wall street crisis we are in ? Just who do you think is responsible for all this financial ruin we are in ? Who is running these corporations for their benefit and not for the greater good ? You mention that the top is crowded with these top-flight school graduates, and I think that is the problem and is nothing more than class discrimination. America is a democracy not an aristocracy. If you run your business properly, you will not give any benefit to these so-called top-flight schools and their worthless hires. Evaluate on experience and potential, not where the degree was earned.

MoreOpinions January 2, 2009 at 8:17 p.m.

The point was the comparison of schools is in many ways a waste of time. IVY and top-flights may be great schools, but, its the graduates that have to perform, and hence people should be evaluated on work experience, ability to perform a job, etc. I never said online is better than IVY or top-flight. I am saying that there is potential that goes undiscovered if you look at life via a narrow minded elitist point of view. Consider, Edison had a 1000 + patents and had no formal education at all. Which is why college should only be a small part of it. Also, google has been around for about 10 years and was started in a garage...
Last I checked it was the best search engine on the net.
Don't judge, if you evaluate a PhD based on their Dissertation, you see a better picture of what they can do.
If you just say, oh, its not IVY league and throw the resume in the trash can, you could lose out on talent.
Is that fair enough to say ?

Hold On January 2, 2009 at 8:48 p.m.

Caveat, with all due respect if you truly desire to change industry standards and increase awareness within the academic community I'm just wondering if this is the right place to initiate it. This is merely a forum where people post comments, some of them downright outrageous and fake with no truth behind it while others are right on the money. I'm not saying don't post, by all means please do this is a free country. But have you thought of other ways to push this forward or have you gotten others involved? Just talking out loud here.

Mandy January 7, 2009 at 2:21 p.m.

Well, this certainly has been an interesting blog! I received my BA and MA from a respected B&M school and had a good experience. I've recently started an extensive search for a PhD program in psychology/counseling and to be honest with you there too few universities out there that don't offer what I'm looking for on online degrees. The only schools that came up on my search were Capella, NCU and Walden. I'm a working mom with three children of which 2 are in grade school so I really don't have the time to attend sit down classes. I'm looking for a school that will give me flexibility. I really don't see anything wrong with getting a degree online for busy working professionals as long as it comes from an accredited school. Does anyone know of other schools that offer a PhD in psychology/counseling fully online that I can check out? Also, can anyone give me feedback as to which of the three schools: NCU, Capella or Walden is the better choice overall? Thanks! Any positive or negative feedback would be helpful.

Caveat Emptor January 8, 2009 at 1:14 p.m.

Mandy:

Take a look at the following site:

geteducated dot com

I have a ? January 11, 2009 at 2:37 p.m.

Hello,

I would like to ask some current students who take the courses online how do you get the books and materiel's (e.g. are they sent to you via postage overnight?) Also, if there is a delay in receiving the books (e.g. 7-10 days) then when does your start date begin since there is a delay in receiving the materiel's. How does the college handle this or how does it work?

All comments are welcomed!

Thanks

caveat emptor January 19, 2009 at 2:38 p.m.

Time are Changing:

I enjoyed reading your comment. I don't think any of the recent posts are bashing on-line learning. On the contrary, I think many posts here recognize virtual learning is indeed the future.

The challenge I see with the for-profit universities is they eat there young. With an open enrollment philosophy, these universities admit nearly everyone armed with the minimum credentials. Many of these folks move through the required courses (some do not) and then fail to complete the dissertation.

They spend a bunch on tuition, fees, text books, and possibly site visits, then they fail to complete the dissertation, some fail to complete the course work due to poor previous academic rigor.

It's no surprise you hear folks on this site bad mounthing thier respective for-profit university for setting them up for failure instead of simply saying they're not academicaly qualified for admittance.

The reason these for-profits don't reject many who need rejecting is they make a bunch on tuition, fees, books and other expenses before these folks drop out absent but dissertation (ABD). Therefore, caveat emptor!

Some People Just Don't Have Common Sense January 20, 2009 at 5:44 p.m.

And that is free, it does not matters where you go to school, it is the student and not the university that matter. It does not matter if the school is for profit or not; public or private;open enrollment or selective enrollment, they have minimum standards to follow, that were approved by an evaluating body recognized by the US Department of Education. Live and let live, just remember that changes is inevitable and is coming, like or not. Anyway, this is a buyers' market, go where you can afford. Have fun wasting you logic for the inevitable, you will be assimilated.

Some People Just Don't Have Common Sense January 21, 2009 at 8:29 p.m.

Mr, Emptor:

Your logic makes no sense and is not substantiated with anything. For profit as much as non-for profit have a same goal, which is to make money, what differentiate them is for whom they make the money. Nova Southeastern University, for example, is non for profit and is extremely expensive and has a selective enrollment; yet there are many people that are not able to finish a doctorate degree with them either. BTW only one 1% of the population can only finish a doctorate regardless where they go to college.

So, don't let the illusion that because a school is not for profit and has a selective enrollment process, that are not there to squeeze money out of students who gets in and for that matter money from taxpayers, you need to be grounded in the real world. All you need to do is a comparison cost and you will see that non-for profit can behave just as bad than for profit. So, to get you started look at the Florida Atlantic University(no for profit and government funded) Online Accounting (AACSB)program, they can waive the GMAT and they charge as much as for profit and they are as twice as expensive as their ground program.

MoreOpinions January 21, 2009 at 10:17 p.m.

How do you know and/or evaluate someone for academic potential ? Is it their GPA, is it their performance on standardized tests, is it letters of recommendation, is it work performance ? I don't think there is a way to tell for sure. Even not-for-profits with high entrance standards have large failures in the Dissertation track. I believe 50% of all entering students in doctoral programs leave without completing their degree, usually at the dissertation level. The high failure rate is not necessarily due to entrance requirements. There are other factors. For example, life circumstances, financial situation, health, interaction with faculty, lack of support, lack of funding, etc, etc. I believe it is misleading to offer blanket statements about schools.

caveat emptor January 22, 2009 at 12:29 p.m.

More Opinions & Isn't up to:

You don't see anyone from Harvard on this site beating up thier educational institution! You do see a plethora of folks beating up the for-profit institution(s)! Sure it's up to the student, but many students suffer from delusions of grandeur.

A few arrive at a site like this searching for information and feedback. I would say most folks are not well informed, check the list of complaints on this site concerning the for-profits, many more complaints than compliments. If it's been said a million times, why are folks still pursuing degrees that cost $100,000 when they could pursue a $30,000 or $50,000 degree with higher credibility? They must be uninformed!

This site is exactly for this purpose, a forum for discussion, and as long as the discussion is respectful with the exchange on ideas being being the foci, then I think we're doing a good thing here.

Good points Caveat January 24, 2009 at 4:23 p.m.

Caveat, you mentioned that ill informed students are pursuing educational degrees from for profit schools that cost ten times more than non profit schools. The fact of the matter remains is that most non profit schools (if not all) cater to full time students. For me personally, I can't take off years to pursue full time studies. However, if the opportunity presented itself I would. Furthermore, many who work in law enforcement or the military don't have worker friendly schedules or can't afford to take that much time off. Therefore the question remains is there a non-profit credible school that offers low cost respectable doctorate for the working professional? If one exists, please let me know. If not, we gotta use what we have.

C January 27, 2009 at 6:52 p.m.

In response to "Just a Guy,"

I am going to attempt to shed some light on your question as to why students go to school online and, in your opinion, take a chance on the quality of the education. I have taken both on-ground/traditional classes, online classes as well as a combination format and personally, I feel as though I learned a lot more in my online courses than I ever did attending classes. I think that on-ground traditional classes were so easy I never had to crack a book. All that was necessary to earn an A was to attend the lecture and take a few notes. I am a straight A student by the way and graduated with a M.S. degree from a top 10 traditional university.

In contrast, however, with the online course format, I was forced to open my books, read and critically think about the problems/cases in front of me versus listening to my professors' point of view. As a result, not only was I making the grade, but also gaining an excellent education...by learning my way. Moreover, I have a Type-A personality so I like to log-in to class at least three to four times a day (sometimes very late in the evening) to get ahead on my assignments, discussions and readings as well as obtain feedback from professors any time of the day or night. This works out best for me because I do not need to wait for the rest of the class. I can learn at my own pace and I do not need to take a leave from my current employment to get the PhD degree I aspire to achieve.

Therefore, not only do I believe the quality of the education is better, but the online distinction is not really a concern to most employers. As long as you earn a degree from a regionally accredited institution, have excellent references, work experience, good common sense and make good grades you will get the job whether you graduated from Cornell or eCornell.

I certainly respect your opinion and hope this helps you to better understand the critical thinking behind the decision to earn an advanced degree online. By the way, I loved reading the correspondence (slight debate) between you and BoBo. I felt you both had valid and well thoughtout points.

Information January 27, 2009 at 10:05 p.m.

I said it once on other boards but I want to mention it here too. A Phd is not for everyone. If you don't take the time in the program and do it full time, you shouldn't get a Phd. The Phd is a degree for those who go full time and spend all waking moments to read and write about a single subject, learn how to design experiments, and understand better than anyone how it works. You cannot do this if you are doing it part time or online. So if you can't leave your job to do this full time, you can't get a respectable degree.

Some People Just Don't Have Common Sense January 28, 2009 at 2:14 a.m.

Mr. Information,

Your opinion does not make sense. Wake up, we are in the 21 century and live in a global economy.

C January 28, 2009 at 6:18 p.m.

To Information,

That is so not true. Most PhD students also work, even traditionally they teach classes or do fellowships at the institution. Going to school full-time and working is very possible and is done everyday. As a matter of fact, most PhD programs will not even admit students without work experience. However, if you are a corporate executive with lots of responsibility and travel frequently, you are not able to quit your job to earn your PhD. These are the types of individuals that top-notch schools want to entice, not students with no work experience and no real future.

caveat emptor January 29, 2009 at 6 p.m.

I'm not sure that no choice is a choice. I continue to read dicotomous comments regarding the merits of virtual verses brick and mortor education. This is not the issue... virtual learning is now, and will certainly will be the future. I see an educational future world offering all courses on-line at all levels that don't require some type of tactility phase (such a medical or dental school).

As many of you have pointed out, there are a plethora highly credible graduate programs available on-line. Check out www.geteducated.com for a comprehensive list of this programs.

Admittedly, part-time doctorate programs are a bit more problematic to locate. Some folks arrive at this site, read overwhelming negative comments about a for-profit insitituion, choose to attend this institution, fail, then bad mouth the institution.

In fact, on-line education at this level is very difficult. It is a lonesome road, particularly at dissertation. Some complete the course work, others don't. Some complete the course work, but fail at dissertation completion and spend a bunch to get to this point with little to no return.

If an individual knew of eminent failure, they wouldn't attend. If their best friend said, "hey, you don't have what it takes to complete this degree," would they listen? However, the for-profit admissions representative is not going to ask these questions.

By all means, pursue advanced education, I'm a big fan, but if you're going to spend $60,000 to attend a for-profit, you could spend this same amount of money and attend Northeastern University's on-line MBA program with no GMAT requirement why wouldn't you?

For those of you who just have to have a doctorate degree, I would ask at what cost and for what gain? Is attending the only educational institution you can gain access to and spend between $50,000 and $100,000 (total cost) the best option for you, it might not be!

caveat emptor January 30, 2009 at 2:02 p.m.

Some People:

No connection with www.geteducated.com. I located this site and found it very informative. I know there are many similar websites out there. Isn't great when you have someone else pay for your education; however, many don't have this benefit, and even if they did, why not attend the best shcool you