Northcentral University

Caveat Emptor September 21, 2006 at 6:41 p.m.

BoBo Shan seems a lot like that PR hack paid by NCU.

Read the truth at Wikipedia, before NCU has that deleted too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northcentra...

Caveat Emptor September 22, 2006 at 4:46 a.m.

You didn't read the original link, you obviously either didn't read or didn't understand the Wiki link, you have lots of opinions based on absolutely nothing but your own speculation, ignorance and hot air. This suggests you are a paid shill and not a bona fide poster.

As you know, Hecht founded NCU and operates it in the same sleazy fashion he has operated and continues to operate his other scandalous affairs. Get some real facts first, then see if you can actually handle the truth. NCU can't and apparently neither can you, which reinforces your master/shill connection.

BoBo Shan September 22, 2006 at 4:08 p.m.

Second, they are in Self Study right now for accreditation renewal by the HLC and the NCA. Third, their student population currently shows articulation agreements in which no PhD or Doctorate candidate receives more than 30 credits upon transfer UNLESS they have PhD or Doctorate Credits from another accredited college OR have credits from a college currently under contracted articulation agreement with NCU, a list of which can be found on their website. If you knew anything about the accreditation guidelines you might realize that a college CANNOT take more than 50% of the require credits for graduation into their programs from a non-accredited program. Considering they are in self study and up for accreditation renewal in 2008, I doubt that they would jeopardize their re-accreditation by engaging in the claims of “sleazy” activity you put forth with SCUPS or any other college. It does not make any sense. NCU is increasing in enrollment and is making money through traditional marketing means and continuing enrollment. Considering the small enrollment numbers at SCUPS, it would make no business sense whatsoever to risk valid articulation to provide fraudulent incentives to a few SCUPS students. Not to mention the only degree programs that share relevance between SCUPS and NCU would be the psychology programs. So now that you have been educated on the facts of the situation and you have no recourse you will once again resort to irrational claims of a conspiracy theorist simply because your entire story is not based in fact, does not follow logic, and stems directly from your biased personal opinion.

Caveat Emptor September 23, 2006 at 12:58 a.m.

Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus.

You have proven yourself to be a liar. The website where the first link was posted is down, has been down since you posted that the link didn't work, and is still down.

So either the link worked and you lied about that, or you didn't read the link and lied about that.

But then since you are obviously a paid shill for NCU you had no credibility anyway. Most likely the same shill who vandalized the Wiki page, Bert Woodall, NCU's paid PR hack. Want to go for some more lies? Tell us that you're not he.

BoBo Shan September 24, 2006 at 6:22 a.m.

Bert Woodall I am not, nor do I know of him. Ask the host to confirm IP and the truth will lie within. As it is with many house of cards built on shaky ground, the house shall fall, as did yours, and collapse without a sound. You lack sustainability in the story you present, the claims you make lie not in fact, rooted deeply in resent. As many who came before you did with nothing there to back, your tactics lie as we know now, in your attempts to just distract. “Attack” you scream, your battle cry “divert them from the light” for if they see this house of cards, they’ll know that BoBo’s right. “I cant have that” you say inside, “the evidence is clear. I’ll say that BoBo is a fraud and maybe they wont hear.” There’s nothing left of you this time, the challenge found you slacking, you laid your claims in guise of truth, and truth has found you lacking. Acts of desperation now, you sink, you’ll soon be gone. Not surprising for a house of cards, and what you built it on. You fail Emptor, you fail sir, no honor in this game. You seek the downfall of another, to lay your claim to fame. Nothing good can come of you, your story dies without a whimper, pathetic dark and lonely there, the world of Caveat Emptor.

Dee December 13, 2006 at 5:24 p.m.

BoBo Shan, I applaud your well-informed challenge to Caveat Emptor! All schools of higher learning online or otherwise have problems and most of these same schools also have great positives. NCU is no different in this regard. I believe NCU is a wonderful school with good programs.

TonyNYC January 7, 2007 at 11:23 p.m.

What is really wrong with this school (if anything)? Would someone tell me? I mean, can they really be that "crappy" if they are accredited? Considering an online DBA. Suggestions & comments welcome.

tman February 2, 2007 at 10:27 p.m.

Anyone who relies on wikpedia as a source of valid, verifiable information is no better than the town gossip who defers to the authority of 'they' and 'them' when citing the sources of their often slanted, frequently false claims.

Dee February 24, 2007 at 10:34 p.m.

I strongly disagree with your assessment of online schools, JAG. I proudly completed my Masters at Capella and I have reaped the rewards of this degree ever since I achieved it in 2003. Presently, I am a professor at a 2-year institution and I was hired especially for my experience with online education. Additionally, I am pursuing my PhD online. My current degree is deeply respected by my colleagues and I would pit the education I received at Capella against any person’s degree earned at a “brick-and-mortar” institution—any day, any time. Education, whether earned at an on-ground campus or online school, is what you make it. A person can get a degree from Harvard and still not succeed in life, due to a myriad of reasons, which are likely to include poor motivation and low tacit knowledge. Likewise, one can earn there degree from an online school like Capella or any of the others you mentioned, and achieve very high status in the industrial/occupational sphere. Indeed, what angers me so much about comments like yours is the tremendous lack of insight and utter void of fair-and-balanced consideration of the alternative perspectives. It is clear not only to me, but to credible educational research, that there is clear and present bias against online schools. In a society which is underscored by equity of opportunity, it is important to provide an array of educational opportunities to those seeking advanced knowledge and training.

Dee February 26, 2007 at 2:39 a.m.

I am not familiar with any scientific research conducted regarding occupational prospects of those whose degree was obtained from an online school versus one obtained from a traditional “brick-and-mortar” school. Nevertheless, if the 72 percent statistic you tout is true, then I would argue that this represents more the subjective bias that HR agencies hold against online degrees as opposed to an objective truth that such degrees are as good as degrees earned from “brick-and-mortar” schools. As a society that prides itself on equity of opportunity, why should we accept this limiting bias? When educational opportunities are limited by elitist and relativistic claims that an advanced education can only be obtained via traditional institutions of higher learning, then you severely restrict betterment through knowledge for only a limited population of adult learners. In my view, this is wrong.

Rick March 2, 2007 at 3:54 p.m.

Just-a-Guy, it’s obvious that you’re not familiar with how the majority of military personnel who receive their degrees while in the service obtain them.

How do you think U.S. Navy personnel on ships at sea obtain their degrees, by pulling up to the nearest brick and mortar floating university?

As for schools pressuring staff to pass unprepared students, if online universities learned that trick anywhere is was from their brick and mortar counterparts with sports teams.

Just-a-Guy, since when does business care what academia thinks?

Since when did the Chronicle of Higher Education (CHE) become the publication that measures the pulse of business? I believe it would be safe to say that the CHE is biased to the needs of its constituents, brick and mortar universities.

How many industries have increased the price of their products double digit for a decade and stayed in business? Only academia and health care, and the prevailing consumer opinion is their both a rip off. Central to both of those industries is their dependence on government funding: they don’t compete for the consumers dollars like the vast majority of business have to.

Perhaps in Fortune 500/100 companies and academic institutions the HR professionals may frown on a online degree, but in the real world the vast majority of the available jobs are not from those types of organizations and if the company does have a HR person they don’t make the hiring decisions, the department manager does.

As for government institutions, they don’t care as long as you have a degree at an accredited institution. In addition, because government institutions give preference to hiring veterans, who are getting their degrees online or at-a-distance, quite a few government employees have those – as you call them – less respected degrees.
As a degreed person and a person who is currently pursuing a graduate degree online, I’m glad that my tuition dollars are not going to support sport teams, coaches, or another capital building campaign.

As a person who received his undergraduate degree from a brick-and-mortar university, I’ve competed for positions with people who have online degrees (Excelsior College) and they didn’t have a problem getting respect for their degrees.

As a manager who hires degreed persons, I don’t care if your degree says Harvard or Capella; all a recent graduate knows is theory and how to make decisions with imaginary money; they’re going to have to pay their dues and work their way up the ladder before their given the opportunity to make 100k+ mistakes.

In addition, as a manager, as long as your degree is from a regionally accredited institution, I will respect your education and the effort you put into obtaining it.

ABHCS Jack March 13, 2007 at 3:44 a.m.

Dear Shipmate Rick,

I usually ignore these endless and aimless strings of fruitless blah, blah, blah, but you hit a nerve. I have just retired after 21 glorious years in the Navy and could not agree with you more: few, if any, DEPLOYING arm service personnel have the opportunity to attend traditional post-secondary schools.

In my case, I hold an AA from The University of Phoenix, a BS from Excelsior College (NY), and an MS from Saint Joseph's College of Maine--a very traditional school (founded in 1914) that happens to have a very good and challenging distance education program. I had absolutely no problem getting a great job after retirement and all of my degrees, together with some choice military awards, hang proudly on my office walls. My education, as yours and thousands of military men and women, has been ENHANCED by the diversity of teaching methods we have endured: CLEP exams, GRE tests, DANTES courses, online lessons, as well as traditional curricula.

In the end, what you are is more important than any piece of paper you flash a prospective employer. At some point you will have to step up to the plate and deliver a presentation, write a proposal, or lead a department. If you strike out, it won't matter if your degree is from Ronald MacDonald's University or Harvard.

BoBo Shan March 14, 2007 at 7:55 a.m.

To Just a Guy:

I cannot agree with your perception that somehow traditional colleges offering online courses are somehow superior to colleges that are totally online. In fact, in my experience the opposite is true. Although many traditional colleges are attempting to offer online courses or degree programs, their infrastructure and delivery is not set up to handle the online learner. Their service is sub par because they have no support mechanisms in place to facilitate admissions, tech support or online resources. Because colleges that are 100% online live and die by these things, you can bet that any competitive online college has great service in these areas. If not, the consumer takes their business elsewhere.

I would not place too much respect in traditional colleges offering online. After all, only a few years ago many of these same colleges were saying that online WILL NEVER be a valid form of education. When the new online colleges came in and had success, it hit these traditional colleges where it hurt, in their profit margins. They changed their tune quickly when they realized they were now dealing with educational CONSUMERS. They stopped saying that online is not a valid form of education, and started saying that online courses can be valid ONLY IF they are used to supplement traditional courses in a degree plan. They continued their stance of saying that fully online degree programs are INVALID. Now, because online is where the money exists, they have perpetuated this rumor that somehow getting an online degree from a traditional college is somehow superior to that of a strictly online. This is total crap and simply a ploy to try and keep money in their pocket. Look at is this way, most of the traditional colleges have only been offering online for the last few years. Most major online colleges have been in business for decades. Let the ground campuses be ground campuses and online be online. But don't try to claim that one is superior to the other all around. Ground is better at ground, and online is better at online. Any claim outside of this is a guise to support an agenda.

Raven March 15, 2007 at 1:21 a.m.

When I was talking about my undergrad degree, I never said I did it on-line. I am merely stating that physically attending classes and interacting with other students and faculty is a better learning environment than working strictly on-line. I don't agree with most of the stuff on this blog, but feel strongly that attending a university in a classroom environment is better than distant learning and I challenge anyone who thinks distance learning is as good as sitting in a classroom environment. C'mon, is phone sex better than the real thing? Then how can distance learning be as good? I am satisfied with my accomplishments via distance learning at NCU because it has worked well considering my schedule, but I concede that it will neither be as respected or as good as those who have obtained MBAs from sitting in classrooms at a "brick and mortar" university.

Just a Guy March 15, 2007 at 4:41 a.m.

Bo Bo, Me thinks thou doest protest too much.

Could it be that you are ashamed of your online degree?

Just a Guy March 16, 2007 at 2:01 p.m.

Look, All I said was that in academia and among HR Mangagers that degrees from traditional institutions are more respected than degrees from totally online programs. THAT IS A STATEMENT OF FACT and is not up for "Debate".

If you cannot accept this, I'm sorry. But, that does not change the fact that it is true.

As I said earlier, I want online schools to rise in acceptance but they must do a better job of screening applicants and not letting unqualified people into the program. And, when someone shows that they are uncapable/unwilling to accomplish the rigors of academia to a satisfactory standard they should not be allowed to progress in the program. If you insist on arguing these points, which are again not up for "debate" then you are doing nothing to improve the acceptance of online education. Instead, those that are making the argument for acceptance of online education in its current form are doing nothing but perpetuating the eventual downfall of the totally online programs.

Online programs at otherwise traditional schools have a way to go before they are as good as the traditional programs too...but they are getting better and they have the reputation of the traditional program to back them up.

The competition for students in the online arena is getting more fierce by the day and if the totally online programs do not want to be known as "Accredited degree mills" then they have no choice but to improve their academic standards and remove students who should not be in the program even if it costs them future tuition dollars.

Just a Guy March 16, 2007 at 8:25 p.m.

read my post from 25 FEB

just a guy March 16, 2007 at 11:17 p.m.

My point is that if you get your degree online from a traditional school and then attempt to use that degree to secure employment, the employer does not ask if you got your degree totally online. Rather, they simply accept it as a traditional degree because it is from a traditional institution. The traditional college also makes no distinction between online vs. inclass. Thus, the degree commands a higher degree of respect simply BECAUSE OF THE REPUTATION OF THE ISSUING INSTITUION. (I don't mean to shout, I just want to make that last point clear.) Whether that higher degree of respect is deserved remains to be seen and will vary on a case by case basis depending on the individual as it will for any student online or otherwise.

For what its worth, I respect people that get their degrees online. For some, due to family/career obligations, it is the only option they have.

My main arguement here is NOT against online education, but rather that the online schools should be striving to improve their reputations by ensuring that they are NOT graduating students who are going to then embarass the schools in the future.

Due to the inherent bias against the online schools (which I never denied existed) the online schools must go even further than their traditional counterparts to prove that the graduates they are turning out are of high quality. Thus far, due to their managements pursuit additional tuition dollars they have made minimal to no effort in this arena.

If you can demonstrate otherwise please let me know.

Bo Bo Shan March 17, 2007 at 3:35 p.m.

PhD Student,

Another common misconception is that people tend to lump distance learning and online learning. Online was first effectively pioneered by John Sperling as he moved from Berkley to Phoenix in the 70's. Distance learning programs existed before then but they were made up of correspondence courses or satellite cohort programs.

Sperling has a book in which he discusses the growth of Apollo/UOP and the resistance he met from the traditional industry as they lobbied against UOP constantly.

Make no mistake, the bias that exists against online is about money and power. Online has forced the hand of traditional colleges to become more service oriented. For decades, traditional colleges told students who, what, when, where and how but not why. If the student didn’t like it, they were not able to improve their education. Many traditionalists are closed to online (for profit) because they assume education should be elite. The new online colleges came in and made the education industry consumer oriented and accessible to the common person. When you began to lose students, you begin to lose money, when you lose money you lose power, you become desperate, angry, hostile. The traditional campuses went on the attack. They have failed on every real front as they attempt to keep online oppressed. The only place they have succeeded is in the public perception arena as they spread ignorance and propaganda regarding the quality of online in order to service their own personal agenda.

I am sure many have seen the NY Times article that came out about UOP. While it was poorly researched, some of the items in the article did ring true. But only true about UOP. Due to bias, people have applied the UOP issues to reflect on the whole industry. What was less publicized was Brian Muller’s letter in response to the NY Time article. I know Muller and I do not like him, he is a megalomaniac. Regardless of that, if you have a chance to read his retort, he is right on the money regarding the traditional education industry.

Just a Guy March 17, 2007 at 10:11 p.m.

Bo Bo,

So, In your opinion what school would you consider to be the "Harvard of the online schools" and are there any that you would avoid?

Bo Bo Shan March 18, 2007 at 10:20 p.m.

Boligee,

Just make sure the program is aligned with the requirements for AAMFT. Most states require AAMFT standards to apply for licensure. Check with your state board of psych too.

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 1:01 a.m.

Let me rephrase the question. In your opinion, what yould you consider to be the best online university and are there any that you would avoid and why?

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 3:48 p.m.

What is the difference between AACSB and ACBSP?

Just a Guy March 19, 2007 at 8:06 p.m.

So why don't online business programs pursue AACSB accredidation?

Just a Guy March 20, 2007 at 12:20 a.m.

Is there a chance that NCU will lose its regional accredidation?

Bo Bo Shan March 20, 2007 at 2:55 a.m.

Guy,

I doubt it. I have been through a few HLCNCA peer reviews in my career and NCU would have to seriously screw it up to lose it. They may only get a 3 year extension at minimum and then comply with quarterly site visits which is about the worst thing I have seen happen before. The biggest issue is Hecht. Until he is out of the picture NCU will still be scrutinized by accreditors. I dont think the issue will be with academics, it will be with governance. And by governance I mean the fact that Hecht's name is in any way associated with the school. In this case, the best thing they could ever do is go public.

Bo Bo Shan March 20, 2007 at 5:34 p.m.

I would say that the risk is not actual, but only perceived. Because of the social stigma placed on distance ed because of an agenda perpetuated by those who feel and have felt the impact of online, people tend to go with the social norm. It does not validate the perceived risk in any way shape or form. The true dividing line is not between online and traditional ground, the true line is between good institutions and bad. However, because online colleges are easily identified people tend to segregate them. Because they perceive a risk at a few online colleges, they assume an actual risk at all online. This has less to do with actual situations, and more to do with how people can be swayed by public opinion, right or wrong. Looking at ratio of traditional ground campuses and that of online/mixed, the chances that a ground campus somewhere is lacking quality is much greater than that of online. However, these ground campuses, regardless of quality, are given a free pass from scrutiny because they piggyback on the quality put forth by a few ground campuses that actually do things right. I am sorry to say it, but schools like ASU have much to improve upon in their academics.

Ultimately, society is slow to accept change and tends to hold on to tradition. It does not matter if that tradition serves little function in modern society. Online is young and like all things new, experiencing growing pains as well as a great amount of resistance from those who have tied their livelihood to traditional education.

The industry will evolve past this and moving forward you will see more traditional colleges that move into online seek guidance from the online arena. It is already happening. Eventually, this perception of online will pass and become a part of this industries history. Look at history, you will see example after example of what was once accepted as the norm, changing to better represent the reality.

The only risk with online is choosing the right school for you as an individual and as you know, this is not limited to just online. The other risk is allowing those who look to oppress online to continue doing so. Online schools and students do not need to shy away from the challenge put forth. In fact, the challenge should be put to the traditional schools. They have failed to offer students at all levels access to education and have failed to become service oriented entities. They should be the ones defending themselves. I believe that eventually they will have to.

older "student" March 21, 2007 at 7:02 a.m.

just a guy and bo bo shan I'd like to thank you for your candid discussion. It has helped me. I am an older woman who would just love to pursue an advanced degree (doctorate) and have been thinking of SCUPS for some time. I was weighing my age, the cost, and that it's a personal accomplishment that maybe I could use to serve society. However, I think after reading your discussion I should move causiously and perhaps pursue maybe a Master's in Social Work at Sacramento State when I retire in 20 months. I wanted to do distance learning as the time and energy saved is amazing when one takes an online program. But at the same time even $15,000 on a doctorate is money that I'd like spent on a degree that is recognized. It is too bad that online education is so prohibitive cost wise. I will find other ways to serve in retirement...maybe run for elected office or serve on volunteer groups. Txs again for the discussion.

MBA Seeker March 24, 2007 at 11:53 p.m.

Just a Guy thanks for your input. I was considering NCU, but instead I'm going to pursue my MBA at the University of Texas' online program. My employer is paying for the degree so cost was not an issue. The HR lady at my employer (she manages these programs) agreed with your assessment concerning online degrees. She said that if she saw University of Texas on a resume she would not question the value if the degree and would not even assume that it was an online degree.

Thanks again

Lawson March 26, 2007 at 5:49 a.m.

Just a Guy...Online Universities are serving a valuable function in society. I Just completed my first 2 classes in the business PhD program at NCU. Befor attending NCU I applied to 6 different traditional PhD programs and I was turned down by all 6. With traditional universities only accepting 3-4 doctoral students per year, online schools may be the only option for some people who wish to get their doctorate degrees.

Bo Bo Shan March 26, 2007 at 11:02 p.m.

Lawson,

You bring up a good point but you are talking about how traditional education believes that higher education is "elite" and not for consumption by the masses. This is just another reason they dislike online. If you have a PhD as does someone who attended a school they "approve" of, they assume it devalues their degree. Just because they believe a person is not worth of learning does not make it so.

Bo Bo Shan March 26, 2007 at 11:27 p.m.

And who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to select those who are "cut out" for it? If they fail, then so be it. Are you saying that they should not be allowed to try? This is a dangerous line of thinking as history has demonstrated.

With regards to NCU using the bachelor degree as the basis of admissions, if you look on their website, you can see that is for the 81 credit hour program. If an individual has a masters level degree or credits, they take between 51-81. Those first 30 credits seem to be equivilant to a master level program.

A different approach does not mean a worse approach.

Just a Guy March 26, 2007 at 11:33 p.m.

To older student and MBA Seeker... Smart choices

Bo Bo Shan March 27, 2007 at 12:09 a.m.

JAG,

What is your true agenda here? You obviously have ulterior motives. While you declare that you hope online is successful, you seem to only hope those colleges you deem worthy are successful. Your statement about NCU, Capella, and Walden saying people should not attend reveals much about your agenda. You are here to promote your idea that traditional college’s online degrees are somehow far superior to that of other online. Yet the only evidence you present has stemmed from concepts like public perception and your view as a hiring professional.

Your last statement "It is not that a person that holds a traditional PhD worries that a PhD from an online school "devalues their degree". But rather, they believe (rightly so) that the online degree is not valuable." is basically contradictory to your point that traditional colleges offer valid online degrees. You make no distinction between which online colleges you simply blanket them into ”no value”. You cannot have it both ways. You cannot say that online is not a valid or valuable form of education and then in the next breath say it is valuable depending on the college. If you are going to say that then you must concede that if some online programs are valid and some are not, this would extend to ALL online programs, traditional or for-profit. This would mean that some online programs from traditional colleges suck as do some from for profit.

Use deductive logic.

Online degrees are not valid. University of Maryland offers an online degree. University of Maryland's online degree is not valid.

By telling someone not to attend certain online colleges simply because they are not traditional, what is it that you hope to accomplish? Please provide me the positive benefit or contribution to society your approach provides.

Why must you seek the downfall of another group or entity to promote your agenda?

Bo Bo Shan March 27, 2007 at 3:14 a.m.

You are right, many of the online colleges are/were my clients as well as are many ground campuses attempting online. There are specific online colleges, such as UOP, that I have refused to service as they are a “rip-off” to many consumers. But I would not compare them to Walden or NCU. If you look at my posts above, I have promoted many online programs at both traditional and for-profit institutions. I am not blindly and foolishly attempting to promote one segment over another as you are by taking the easy way out and segregating traditional from strictly online colleges. I have attempted to segregate based upon specific program quality, price point, service etc. Each college has its pro's and con's. None are perfect regardless of their desired method of delivery. You sit and say a PhD is about "research, research, research" but you do not seem to have done your due diligence in actually researching the schools you antagonize herein. If you are serving anything you are service to perpetuate ignorance. At first you seemed to be an educated individual but now you seem to speak only from personal bias and ignorance.

What is very different between you and me with regards to agenda is this. I do not seek the “downfall” of those who have demonstrated a repeated inability to reform their ways in their dishonest towards and manipulation of the public. I only hope public pressure forces change. Entities such as UOP and EDMC whose business practices and antics are well documented. In light of the recent NYC investigation of misuse of funding and dishonest lending practices by some 400 schools, such issues are not limited to the online realm. While you on the other hand, seek the downfall of any entity you do not deem worthy in the online arena. You refuse to point the magnifying glass on those you provide so much praise. Your logic is flawed. Your motive is not honorable. If you were here to serve the public interest you would put much more effort into investigating the colleges on both sides without bias.

I do not seek the downfall of all traditional colleges either online or ground. I hope they focus more on servicing the educational consumer and move away from an elitist and fascist form of educational segregation you seem to support. Nothing positive can come when you seek the downfall of another without reason or justification. Your method, path, and goal is self serving and ultimately evil.

Again, outside of a claim to protect the masses from being ripped off which is in no way shape or form backed by your actions, what is your agenda and why do you seek their downfall. I have admitted they were a one time client as are multiple other colleges both online and ground. Therefore I have a vested interest in seeing them succeed as I do with seeing online in general succeed. Stop pretending your goal here is so very altruistic and tell the truth.

Daniel March 27, 2007 at 1:19 p.m.

Secondly, does anyone know of any good part time, distance learning PHD programs in computer science where the student could attend on campus for only briefly every quarter/year?

NCS seems to be the closet for this.

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 3:54 p.m.

Bo Bo,

I give people my honest opinion. I have never said that this is anything other than my opinion. If you do not like my opinion, I'm sorry.

I feel that people need to know that if they spend several years and $20K+ on an online degree from the 4 schools I have listed above, that their degree will not command the same degree of respect that it would if it were from a more traditional university.

AND, If they get their degree ONLINE from a traditional university, NO ONE WILL KNOW that they got their degree online. Thus, the online degree from the traditional university will command the same degree of respect as the ground campus degree from the same institution. You say I use no logic??? This is extremely logical.

Duke University did a study a few years ago comparing their inclass MBA students to their online MBA students by giving them a standardized exam at the end of their respective programs. As it turned out the online students performed SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER.

I am not anti-online.

I just think people can do better than the four schools listed above.

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 3:58 p.m.

Daniel,

You might consider Indiana State University's program in Technology Management at the following link. Its not purely computer science, but it is closely related.

http://www.indstate.edu/consortphd/sched...

Just a Guy March 27, 2007 at 5:41 p.m.

"Your method, path, and goal is self serving and ultimately evil."

In what way am I being self-serving and evil???

By giving my honest opinion???

I have absolutely nothing to gain or lose.

Again, I think thou doest protest too much.

Just a Guy March 28, 2007 at 12:21 p.m.

So now this is an EEO issue??

PLEASE!!!

All I said was that Capella, Walden, NCU, and University of Pheonix were not well respected schools. Should I add Grand Canyon U. into that catagory? Yes Possibly! But that does not change that fact that I think people can do better than the four schools listed above. For what its worth I have taught for Nova and their program is academically rigorous and very good (again, in my opinion)

Why do you fell its necessary to defame me calling me evil for giving my opinion concerning these schools?

That should be a HUGE warning flag to those who are reading this that what I'm saying is true. And what Bo Bo is saying is false.

Just a Guy March 28, 2007 at 3:48 p.m.

Daniel,

Dakota State is a good buy for your money. Being a State supported, regionally accredited institution with a ground campus the program should command a reasonable amount of respect as well.

With their distance Ed grad tuition running $252.45 per hour as compared to $495 at NCU, $865 per hour at Walden, $415 per hour at Capella (lowest rate for grad), You can easily see why I think the completely online (for profit) schools are a complete ripoff.

Employer Who Is Hiring March 28, 2007 at 4:53 p.m.

I found this chat because I had concerns over NCU being listed on a resume and the speed with which the doctoral courses were being completed.

I was able to find very little concrete information about NCU admissions; it appears that anyone can get in, and if you have the money you can buy your degree as fast as you can send them the check. I am alarmed; this is quantity over quality and Just A Guy is right when he says it doesn't help the on-line only institutions gain respect. A doctorate is supposed to be hard to obtain; it is supposed to represent certain qualifications and understanding of concepts that are usually used in more critical decision making processes that affect the lives of many people.

I am also alarmed because there is evidence that considerable resources are being expended by NCU
to remove and cover up any negative comments or information about NCU programs and experiences; AND I have serious doubts that the positive comments are unbiased and not paid for by public relations funds from NCU or people who could not get a higher degree from another institution for good reason. Someone is making a lot of money at NCU and has a lot to lose. Rather than expend the assets to increase standards and make those standards known and transparent, it is easier (and cheaper) to hire a PR guy and keep collecting money while copying those diplomas. I have never seen such a committment of assets!

Bob at NASA March 28, 2007 at 8:28 p.m.

Wow, what a fury of back and forth. I'm been trying to form a succinct comment for those trying to understand the substance behind the differing perspectives.

My undergraduate degree is from a traditional school, yet my graduate degree and post-graduate certificate were earned at virtual institutions (UoP & Touro University International). I recently entered the DBA program at NCU but have yet to commence with my first class. Clearly all of my on-line education was received at regionally accredited universities – I personally think that is a baseline requirement.

I believe, and this is only my perspective, that adult learners seeking to improve their contributions at work through cross-discipline exposure, applying new concepts to their work and taking a broader perspective to their work world – an accredited, virtual education – will generally meet their needs. If you want to teach as a profession, study the hard sciences, need a practicum/internship, or enjoy the face-to-face exchange with instructors – a bricks-n-motor will probably be more rewarding.

In summary, an accredited on-line degree will likely help at work while a more traditionally-earned degree will likely help get work. Others may differ in opinion, but that’s been the culmination of my nineteen-years of pursuing a continual education.

At NASA, I am fortunate to work with very bright people, formally educated and having earned degrees from a whole assortment of institutions – the key was being a motivated learner – whether in the virtual environment or sitting in a classroom – adult learners must be prepared and willing to drive their own education.

Good luck!

Daniel March 28, 2007 at 9:41 p.m.

Just a guy > money is not really an option for me (work pays up to $10k/yr for college)

Do you know of any other good institutions which offer distance learning doctorates?

Also, is a D.S.c degree equivalent to a PHD?

Bo Bo Shan March 29, 2007 at 2:25 a.m.

JAG and others,

here are some articles regarding this topic. Review and decide for yourself. Nothing herein supports your story JAG.

http://www.homeuniversitydegrees.com/200...

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/to...

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educa...

http://www.bakersguide.com/kb/Will_an_On...

http://learning.monster.com/learning/res...

http://www.fastweb.com/fastweb/resources...

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/department...

Bo Bo Shan March 29, 2007 at 2:47 a.m.

Daniel,

JAG has absolutely no clue about what he is talking about. Before you make a decision, call a few/a bunch of colleges and find out if they fit within your personal criteria. Can the college accommodate your personal schedule, your academic needs, do they have a support system, how do you feel as you interact with their staff and faculty, are they trying to "sell" you a degree or really help you find the right program, do they operate transparently, are they within your price range. Nothing out there supports JAGS claim here. Do not let his ignorance deter your from keeping your options open. There are too many huge corporations out there sending their employees to the institutions JAG claims will never be recognized by the hiring professions at those same corporations. Ask for the list of corporations that they have direct bill or tuition re-imbursement with, they will provide it. Seems like JAG has flawed logic to me. Take your time; ask to speak with instructors, deans, chairs, and any current students willing to talk with you. Base your decisions on that at these colleges, not some guy in here trying to pawn himself off as a legitimate source of information.

just a "evil" guy March 29, 2007 at 12:52 p.m.

At NCU it is possible to complete a "PhD" is as little as 27 months without a masters degree and as little as 17 months if you have a masters degree. Based on the fact they tell you it is possible to complete a course in 1 month.

This in comparison to a minimum of 3 years and more likely 5 years in a traditional program.

NCU and the other schools I have mentioned are a JOKE academically regardless of what "Biased Bo Bo" says.

As for the websites listed above,lets look at them one at a time.

http://www.homeuniversitydegrees.com/200...

This website is talking about online in general. I have never said that online is bad. I said NCU, and the other schools I have talked about are bad.

http://chronicle.com/forums/index.php/to...

This perpetuates what I have already said.

http://www.earnmydegree.com/online-educa...

A biased paid advertising site.

http://www.bakersguide.com/kb/Will_an_On...

Perpetuates what I've been saying about schools with a corresponding ground campus.

http://learning.monster.com/learning/res...

see #3 another paid advertisement

http://www.fastweb.com/fastweb/resources...

Talking about online in general. I AM NOT ANTI-ONLINE. the four schools that I've been talking about are poor quality and command less respect compared to state supported programs.

http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/department...

Talking about online in general. I AM NOT ANTI-ONLINE. the four schools that I've been talking about are poor quality and command less respect compared to state supported programs.

Bo Bo, These websites perpetuate what I've been saying.

Why do you seem to think I am anti-online? Do you actually read what I write?

NCU, Capella, Walden, and UoP are poor quality schools. Does that mean there are no other poor quality schools out there? No. Does that mean that potential students can do better? Yes.

Do I seek the "downfall" of these 4 schools? NO. I just want them to improve their quality and quit graduating people that they shouldn't.

just a "evil" guy March 29, 2007 at 1:34 p.m.

Everyone who is reading this,

Bo Bo, is attempting to perpetuate the idea that I am anti-online.

I am actually PRO-online. I currently teach online for a traditional state supported school and I am very impressed with the dedication and commitment of on-line students.

What I am saying is that 4 schools NCU, WALDEN, CAPELLA, and UoP are poor quality programs. That is ALL I've been saying.

Bo Bo, is trying to perpetuate these schools, and to do so he must discredit me.

Do your research and you will find that what I am saying is true.

Bo Bo is paid by one or more of these schools.

I am paid by nobody. My opinion is unbiased and based in reseach.

Read every post and then look at the websites Bo Bo kindly provided. You'll find that they acually confirm what I've been saying.

Just a "evil" Guy March 29, 2007 at 3:52 p.m.

"you should be promoting only 50% of Nova and 50% of GCU as according to your logic as only 1/2 their programs would be valid."

I am NOT anti-online. I NEVER said online was invalid.

You are a liar saying that I said such things.

I said UoP, Capella, Walden, and NCU provide poor quality education for the student's dollar.

You take what I say and you try to manipulate it to fit your own twisted agenda.

I have taught for Nova in their online program. I speak from first-hand experience that the program is good.

I also have first-hand experience in that I know UoP's program is bad.

I have spoken with other professors who have taught for Capella, NCU, and Walden. They report similar experience to the one that I had at UoP. Thus, I would call their programs bad as well.

As for Grand Canyon U. I freely admit that I know little about that program. If you say their online program is bad, I'll take your word for it.

But I still say that online programs at State supported, regionally accredited schools with a traditional ground campus offer the best educational value for the student's dollar.

But then you try to manipulate that into "JAG says online is invalid"

You are extremely manipulative, but the Jig is up. Everyone who reads all my posts will know thats true.

Just a Guy March 29, 2007 at 8:41 p.m.

Daniel,

It depends. If you want to teach at a tier 1 research institution, then you want to get your doctorate from a traditional ground based program.

If you want to teach at a smaller teaching oriented school, than there is a strong likelihood that you will be able to find a faculty position.

I would recommend trying to get teaching experience at the JC level and submitting articles for publishing to professional publications in your field. This will go along way toward helping you find that first teaching position

Just a "Evil" Guy March 30, 2007 at 11:40 p.m.

As Long as we are talking about websites Bo Bo, Here is one everyone should look at.

http://www.vault.com/nr/newsmain.jsp?nr_...

Get your online degrees from a state supported, regionally accredited school that also has a ground campus. They have academic integrity, they are well respected and employers won't even think to ask if you got your degree online unless you tell them.

Bo Bo, stop telling lies about what I said.

Bo Bo Shan April 4, 2007 at 4:22 a.m.

First, I have seen the Vault site before. I wrote an email to the author citing the same specific questions I have asked herein. This article and the question posed did not get down the core problem which is asking the individuals they interviewed to explain their bias. What you see is a parallel in extreme comparison with the line drawn between online and elite ground campuses "77% of HR professionals or hiring managers believe that an online degree earned at an accredited institution (Duke, Stanford) is more credible than one earned at an Internet only institution (Jones International)." "Of course, an accredited University, such as Yale or Harvard, is probably favored above a degree from an online University right now. People may frown upon online degrees simply because of the stigma that follows. Reputable online Universities ensure that their students earn their degrees and are not simply handed one after paying the initial costs."

Are they seriously comparing Yale and Harvard to online? That is like asking if you prefer a Porsche over a Pinto. What would they say about ASU vs. Yale? There couldn't possibly be any room for a quality product between those two extremes at both online and ground campuses. This makes me question the method of questioning the researcher was using. Anyone who knows how to do research knows that biased questions yield biased results. I find it odd you overlook that fact here. Why? Because this article supports your stance and you do not scrutinize what you blindly agree with. If the majority of people did, politics and religion would be out of business.

Why does no one pose the question to these HR about the 1/2 of UOP’s 300,000 students that attend the ground program? Is it valid? How about Walden’s ground? Valid? How bout mixed populations? How bout those that transferred 90 credits from a respected ground campus into an online and graduated? Why are they not asked to define what it means to be from a “reputable school”. I bet they cannot. In addition, this article mentions “diploma mills”. No one seems to point out the fact that those mills are relegated to the 900+ NATIONALLY ACCREDITED online colleges out there and not the 90 REGIONALLY ACCREDITED online colleges. Again, they are lumped together because it is easy.

cont...

just a guy April 4, 2007 at 8:04 a.m.

Bo Bo,

Here's the deal.

I HAVE NO AGENDA...

I have a problem with 4 particular schools and the way they run their operation.

What part of that don't you understand?

I have personally experienced (and know of others who have experienced) serious problems with the way these 4 schools run their operations.

Thus, I have expressed serious reservations to potential students that they should probably look elsewhere for their online education credentials.

The fact that I recommend state supported schools comes from the fact that I have experienced higher quality students in the state supported programs as well as administrations that seem to have a focus on providing their students with a quality online education and not simply worry about MAKING MONEY.

If you have a problem with this again I am sorry. But you shouldn't have a problem with me and my opinion.

You should have a problem with the fact that the 4 schools I have been discussing are graduating people that don't deserve to graduate.

How do I determine thats that they are graduating students who don't deserve to graduate?

I have been teaching as an adjunct for 9 years both online and on ground campuses. And I know first hand that these four schools are doing as I charge. As long as you pay your tuition you will graduate.

If the administration of these schools will begin to hold their students to a higher degree of academic standards I will change my tune and begin to recommend them.

Until then I cannot in good faith do so. That would not be fair to potential students.

I recommend Nova, because when I taught for them, I failed 3 students (who were not performing) the school administration agreed with my assessment and told these students that they must repeat the class. I am not currently teaching for Nova. I am in no way associated with the school currently. But, my experience with the school showed that the administration cares that the students receive a positive academic experience (Even at the cost of potential tuition dollars)

Bo Bo, my only agenda is that I want potential students to get good value for their time and educational dollar.

just a guy April 4, 2007 at 8:14 a.m.

By-the-way, You didn't explain why the enrollment folks are telling potential students at NCU that is is possible to get a doctorate in 17 months.

A 17 month doctorate!! Yeah, thats a QUALITY EDUCATION!!LOL

jp April 4, 2007 at 2:31 p.m.

Isn't your education what you make of it?

I know many Harvard grads that attended in resident and are quite ignorant Conversely, I know many brilliant online grads that have attended non-traditional schools, NCU being one of them.

jp April 4, 2007 at 4:04 p.m.

WOW! Your statement, "Employers would much rather see a degree from a brick and mortar school" is very broad. Don't most employers just want to see a degree as part of the whole person concept? Education is only one part of the package along with experience, energy, innovation, adaptiveness, etc.

Collectively, you are missing my point, name brand and traditional school seetings only get you so far. The individual, regardless of where the education is from and how presented, is the key to their progression.

"You can lead a horse to water, but can't make them drink."

Bo Bo Shan April 5, 2007 at 4:55 a.m.

"I have been teaching as an adjunct for 9 years both online and on ground campuses. And I know first hand that these four schools are doing as I charge. As long as you pay your tuition you will graduate."

That is a lie. UOP maybe. Walden, Capella and NCU, that is not correct. I know for a FACT that people can fail those programs.

"By-the-way, You didn't explain why the enrollment folks are telling potential students at NCU that is is possible to get a doctorate in 17 months.

A 17 month doctorate!! Yeah, thats a QUALITY EDUCATION!!LOL"

I had a chance to meet the enrollment staff. More importantly, I had a chance to review articulation agreements and scheduling options. They allow up to 45 credits to transfer into their doctorate programs AS LONG AS THE COURSEWORK IS RELEVANT. This means that some ABD candidates come to NCU and are required to take between 36 and 51 credits (12-17 courses) to complete the degree. Remember that NCU is not a Title IV institution so they are not forced to adhere to min/max course scheduling/reporting per academic year. This means their 12 and 16 week courses are not static. A student has the option to accelerate, double up, or overlap courses. Assume a student does not have a job or life and can dedicate the same focus to education at the doctorate level as a full time bachelor student at a ground campus. Assume they take 2 six/eight week classes at a time. They will finish their core coursework in under two years. The fact is that most of NCU's programs take between 3-5 years to finish. If you call, they will tell you that. More colleges/students would do this if Title IV didnt stop it.

Regardless, is it your intent to say that the longer a program takes the higher the quality? Please prove that. You know how many ABD people I have talked to because the traditional education system has failed them? I'm sure you will say it is the students fault but the sheer numbers prove otherwise.

Daniel April 5, 2007 at noon

JP,

I will give you a for instance. My employer gives us a specific list of schools that we may hire from. UOP, Capella etc... are not recognized as schools that we choose to recognize degrees from. I have to assume that our company is not unique. Therefore, doesn't it make more sense to get an online degree from an institution that everyone will recognize?